• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Where are the options?

Tony Vargas

Legend
TwoSix said:
There's just not a lot of energy in 5e character building without official material, sadly. I miss the good old 3e and 4e days for that.
5E provides backgrounds which expands the unique character combinations to build with significantly as long as we are talking about character building
5e backgrounds don't really expand those things relative to 3e (which had NPC classes, fine-grained skill ranks, and more granular feats) or 4e (which had, well, Backgrounds, as well as Themes) or even 2e with Kits, for that matter. So, yeah, character building. 5e could have more options, there.

Thing is, it's wide open to more options. Backgrounds are one instance, where the core rules even suggest the player & DM get together to mod/customize/add backgrounds. 5e isn't dependent upon a lack of options for it's identity or functionality. More options won't make it 'not 5e anymore' - especially as the core of the game, the PH/DMG/MM, or the PH-only/no-options 'Standard Game,' won't change unless you opt into said options...

I would rather have fewer mechanical options knowing that almost all of them were pretty good
That would be a nice thing to strive for. Even if we did come out and call it 'balance.' ;P Even better: having more options, while still knowing that almost all of them were at least viable.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you had to guess what people wanted prior to 5e being released, would you have guessed no rules-focused support in the first two years would be this successful?

For the first year? Absolutely. For the second year? I would expect to hear an increasing number of complaints, and that's what is happening. More and more people are wanting some rules support and not getting it. In the third and fourth years, I expect people to start leaving the game if the current levels of support continue.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Once again, being official has absolutely nothing to do with quality. No matter what name is on the product as the publisher or creator, its value is still determined by the quality of the content. If WOTC started cranking out 12-15 books per year, you would still need to sift through them to find the gems. If an official supplement has 80% filler and 20% useful stuff then you still have to comb through it to find the content that is useful to you.

Or are you saying that you will happily use even the most craptastic content as long as it comes from a certain publisher?

In my experience, about 80-85% of WotC releases are quality. The entire book may not be good, but it's quality. Also in my experience, about 95% of third party releases are craptastic.

Forgot I answered this one and answered it twice. My bad :)
 
Last edited:

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
For the first year? Absolutely. For the second year? I would expect to hear an increasing number of complaints, and that's what is happening. More and more people are wanting some rules support and not getting it. In the third and fourth years, I expect people to start leaving the game if the current levels of support continue.

Honestly, it seems like a decreasing number of complaints. This time last year the boards were chock full of people foretelling doom & gloom at WotC for not providing a steady stream of splat. This time, we got one thread where the OP was like "Hey, what's up with that?" and a few folks being like "Yeah, some more options would be sweet."
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Honestly, it seems like a decreasing number of complaints. This time last year the boards were chock full of people foretelling doom & gloom at WotC for not providing a steady stream of splat. This time, we got one thread where the OP was like "Hey, what's up with that?" and a few folks being like "Yeah, some more options would be sweet."

Then perhaps the exodus has begun.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Then perhaps the exodus has begun.

If it has, I suppose we'll see a LOT more splat in the coming year or so! WotC would already be ruing the day they came up with this cockamamie scheme to mostly produce character building content that could see broad use rather than ever-increasingly-niche options. Niche options would pay the rent!

I suppose if we DON'T see that, WotC isn't ruing the day and is having at least decent success with their chosen model, however much it might be a change from how they had been doing things.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
For the first year? Absolutely. For the second year? I would expect to hear an increasing number of complaints, and that's what is happening. More and more people are wanting some rules support and not getting it. In the third and fourth years, I expect people to start leaving the game if the current levels of support continue.

There is no increasing level of complaints that I am seeing. They release survey results as well, and WOTC is on-target for audience expectations. Sales continue to be very strong as well, based on all objective criteria I know of. Discussion of the game also remains incredibly high. Every objective indication points to success so far for the game.

If your preference were very representative of the buying public in general, don't you think we'd be seeing more signs in the objective data?

I am not trying to dismiss your perspective on this. I just think you should consider further the possibility your preferences are in a minority on this one, and maybe people don't want more splat as much as you do?
 
Last edited:

CapnZapp

Legend
As I said earlier, there's always something that could be fixed. Always. Games are never perfect.
If this is an attempt to argue "never change anything" it's a completely useless argument and you know it.

You could as well say "don't change anything because the sky is blue". Counterpoint: Of course you can fix something without having to fix everything.

Honestly, it feels as if you're just objecting for objecting's sake here. If you truly don't agree with me, then fine, tell me where you think my logic is at fault. Otherwise, it's okay to simply not respond.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
So let's meet your specific arguments one at a time, shall we?

The "Paizo Route".

The catch with incremental changes is similar to the problems with the 4e Updates.
First, because you can make changes, there's less pressure to get it right the first time.
That's a hopeless stance to take. So you honestly mean "let's commit to never making changes ever because that's the only thing keeping us from shoveling out crapware"?

I'm not familiar with Paizo route?

Second, because anything could be updated, you always need to check to see if it has, slowing down play; it doubles the places to check before making a ruling. (After a revised printing, I stopped looking at my print Pathfinder books and only went to the PDFs.)
Who said anything about an update?

By my scheme, the first printing's classes would be as valid and welcome to the gaming table as printing #20.

Nothing would get "updated". You would have new content just like WotC plans, only that new content would be carefully selected to shore up existing choices and not only add completely new choices.

I give you that a DM with an older PHB could want to check your newer PHB if for some reason she doesn't trust you when you say your Ranger can invoke Ranger's Mark (say) as a class feature instead of having to cast Hunter's Mark as a concentration spell. So bring it.

And if another player at that table also wants the new Ranger feature (despite also having the old PHB), why, let him!

In practice, the changes wouldn't be so many. Most players and DMs would snap them up easy.

The important part is to stay away from "updating" the game. No new rules, only options to fix what doesn't get used much.

Because the first printing could (likely would) be updated it devalues that printing and encourages people to wait for a second printing. But that just slows the time before an update.
A bit doom and gloom, but... you did read my suggestion to tell the player base that this kind of update won't happen again for at least 24 months.

Or some other sufficiently distant time that the market research dept is reasonably confident most buyers can't hold off making their purchase that long :cool:

Lastly, it creates a situation where people are told their character doesn't behave how they think, leading to an ugly surprise.
Yeah, frame it like "an ugly surprise" - that's not at all pessimistic. And who gave you the idea people "are told" things, like this was the Soviet Union or something?

Let me respond by an alternate phrasing:

Lastly, it creates a situation where people find out for themselves that the character options they thought were crap, are now strong viable options to explore, leading to a wonderful surprise.

Do note that we reach completely different conclusions based on exactly the same source material.

I'd almost prefer a revised PHB in 3-4 years with all the fixes rather than wave after wave of incremental changes.
I agree.

And I never said anything about "wave after wave" of communist invad... I mean incremental changes.

Fewer changes than a 3.5, and designed to be completely compatible. Fix some non-errata errors, work in some Sage Advice answers, and do some super minor rebalancing.
I agree.

Give it a new cover
I don't agree.

A visual cue to make it easy to see which printing you've got yes, but basically stick to the same appearance to give the notion "it's the same book - you and I are playing the same game".

I believe by keeping the same cover you send a strong signal that the book is the same, the playing base is the same, the game is one and the same.

As opposed to the divisive effect 3.5 had; splitting the player base into "we play 3.0":ers and "we play 3.5":ers.

I think, no I know, WotC wants to make sure there is only one player base: "we play D&D".

and maybe swap out a few of the weaker bits of art. But otherwise keep the same look and layout to keep down costs.
I agree.

But that might still not go over well. The community is reactive and it would still feel like asking folk to repurchase the book. If that was paired with a free document on the website and/or DMsGuild with the changed content, it might help.
I think that the important thing is for WotC not to ask folk to repurchase the book.

They have always done that. A new edition, a new cash cow.

But the idea is to stick to the PHB as an evergreen.

So there should be no big marketing push, no loud trumpeting of "all new PHB".

Just a firm and clear but not loud message: "as of yesterday, all new PHBs shipped will contain these twenty changes:
1) Ranger's Mark...
2) ...

The next such update is not planned, but will not happen before March 10 2018, if ever."
 

CapnZapp

Legend
You just walked up to someone and told him that his ankle was in the middle of his body. Right now there is no compromise between WotC's old release schedule and anything. They virtually stopped rules releases and that's no middle ground no matter how you want to spin it Aaron.

Nope.
Yes, there is - there is the compromise between WotC's old release schedule and never releasing another D&D table-top RPG product. You know, since that's the default response from a company regarding a product that isn't performing as well as they'd like, to just cancel production on that product entirely.

Never did I think people would fight to claim the middle ground.

Zapp, on the high ground
 

Remove ads

Top