Where are these prerequisites?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sorry I wasn't clear...

My DM may not allow VoP because it may not be in the books he decides to allow us to use for the campaign- I don't know that he has a particular dislike for that feat.

Its an oft-repeated story in my game group: Core only & Core + Class books is a typical book selection for DMs to limit us for our use. However, I have noticed him perusing other sources of late, like the Draconomicon.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Core + Class books? What exactly do you mean by that?

I've heard many games be the old Core & Complete - that's pretty common. Core, Complete and XPH is relatively common. Anything with the BoED is much more rare.

Oh - and about the DM misreading on my part - sorry 'bout that. i jumped the gun on what typically is said as a first impression. My apologies.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Core + Class books= Core + Complete

Most of the DM's in our group still run 3.0, and those books don't have a unified title system like the 3.5 books do.

XPH is out because I'm one of the few who actually LIKE Psionics, and anything else is typically DM's whim.

But from what I read on the boards and hear in the game stores, your assumption wasn't unjustified. Most people who ban VoP ban it without seeming to really examine it in the context of a party of PCs of equivalent level.

 

[andargor]

But from what I read on the boards and hear in the game stores, your assumption wasn't unjustified. Most people who ban VoP ban it without seeming to really examine it in the context of a party of PCs of equivalent level.

VoP can be powerful with the right classes, yes.

Our DM bans it from player use, but uses it as a plot/RP device. For example, the party leader and my character, who both worship the same god, were imposed VoP by said god for various reasons.

He's a cleric oriented towards Diplomacy, so it gave him a needed power boost which he was lacking.

For my character, it was another story... He's a Wizard, so bye-bye spellbook. The DM allowed the exchange of existing feats for Sacred Vow/VoP and a bunch of Spell Mastery (at the characters current Int, which was fairly high). Wizards gain power exponentially at high levels, so it toned him down somewhat. It was a shift in abilities, really. My character became much more resilient, and I had to choose the spells I kept carefully. Less feats, but he's still potent offensively. I actually like the change, it was refreshing...

Andargor

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For my character, it was another story... He's a Wizard, so bye-bye spellbook.

Huh? On what grounds?

A spellbook isn't a magic item, and the VoP expressly says you "can have and use a spell component pouch." Some of those components are going to be quite pricey, so apparently you can have things of value insofar as they are required for spellcasting.

 

[andargor]

Huh? On what grounds?

A spellbook isn't a magic item, and the VoP expressly says you "can have and use a spell component pouch." Some of those components are going to be quite pricey, so apparently you can have things of value insofar as they are required for spellcasting.

It has value:

Selling a Spellbook

Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.

As for components, my character has Ignore Material Components.

EDIT: The VoP description has a very specific list of things you can possess, and expensive material components are not permitted (although you can "beg" for them).

Andargor

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OK, it has value- so does anything else a VoPov PC can carry, little though that value may be. In weapons alone, he could legally carry a Heavy Mace (12gp), a Hvy Xbow and some bolts (52gp).

Yes, I know that's orders of magnitude less than a 3500gp spellbook.

But this isn't ostentatious material consumption- this is something essential to what the class is.

After all, would you rule that a VoPov Bard could ONLY be a poet or singer, or would you allow him to carry an instrument?

Besides, the BoED doesn't say that a VoPov PC can't own or carry expensive components:

BoED p30
A character who has forsaken material posesions may find himself at a marked disadvantatge when it comes to certain necessary expenses, such as expensive material components. One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from party members...

I read that to mean that since he hasn't got much money and little of value for trade, he will not be able to purchase anything at the alchemist & wizards' supply shop. He'll have to find other, non mercantile means to acquire spell components, including finding them himself while adventuring. Perhaps he can get his components by doing odd jobs for the apothecary- sweeping, cooking, repairing the roof, etc., in exchange for 3 hots, a cot, and some components.

I also take that to mean that, by demeanor, a VoPov PC might find it embarrassing to be holding onto 250gp of diamond dust while the family of 4 that is putting him up for the night can barely make ends meet. Instead, that PC would/should surrender that dust in gratitude for the aid given to him out of the family's necessities, or may not even LEARN that spell, since each casting requires conspicuous consumption.

Since the VoPov description expressly limits possessions to simple weapons, simple clothes, 1 day's food, and a spell component pouch, RAW, you could argue that a spellbook is simply not permitted, and thus, barring a houserule or late adoption of the Vow (meaning the PC could accumulate feats like Spell Mastery and Innate Spell), a Wizard would be effectively barred from taking VoPov.

I would counter, however, that it does not seem to be written with such intent. Otherwise, Clerics would be similarly (but not so entirely) discomfited by this feat because nowhere in the Feat's text does it allow an ascetic to carry a holy symbol- definitely something of value that would be essential to the class' functions (like Turning Undead). Bards would be unable to carry instruments.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Personally, I would fall somewhere in the middle of the above explanation. I would let the wizard carry a spellbook, but not learn any spells with expensive materials. I might be convinced to allow - on a VoP special houserule only - that taking Eschew Materials multiple times grants the caster the ability to forgo more and more but I have no idea how I would increment it.) Nothing wrong with being able to weild great power ... but I do think it is wrong for a VoP spellcaster to have diamond dust - or a sapphire or black onyx or whatever - sittingin his spellpouch.

 

[andargor]

Since the VoPov description expressly limits possessions to simple weapons, simple clothes, 1 day's food, and a spell component pouch, RAW, you could argue that a spellbook is simply not permitted, and thus, barring a houserule or late adoption of the Vow (meaning the PC could accumulate feats like Spell Mastery and Innate Spell), a Wizard would be effectively barred from taking VoPov.

I would counter, however, that it does not seem to be written with such intent. Otherwise, Clerics would be similarly (but not so entirely) discomfited by this feat because nowhere in the Feat's text does it allow an ascetic to carry a holy symbol- definitely something of value that would be essential to the class' functions (like Turning Undead). Bards would be unable to carry instruments.

And this is where Rule 0 comes in.

Anyway, we're way off topic, but I can just say that with the proper tweaking VoP is an interesting addition to a Wizard. I know that IOC my character would be way too powerful with a spellbook in addition to VoP, and the DM made the right calls.

Andargor

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hmm...what about tattooing the spells onto his flesh?

I know it sounds odd, but the mortification of the flesh IS something that many holy or would-be holy types ascribe to.

Yes? No?

While we're on the topic of VoPov, has anyone here tried it with an OA Shaman or a XPH Soulknife?