Where Complexity Belongs

[stonehead]

And no a GM who also plays is not a player, they still have way too often the GM mindset.

Then we only have a disagreement about terms. I think the average person who has been both a GM and a player would design a better game than the average person who has experience with only one of the two. If you want to call that person a GM, then fair enough.

GMs who play as players are always the most annoying players for non GM players because they cather to much for the fun of the GM and at the same time try to grab the attention all the time because they are used to having more attention when they are GMing themselves.

If we're trying not to be elitest, broad sweeping statements casting all GMs as bad players probably isn't the right play.

 

[aramis erak]

because GMing is always similar.

My experience is counter to this.
GMing a game with a unified mechanic (GURPS, MegaTraveller, Traveller: The New Era, WWG Storyteller System, Savage Worlds) is different from running a game that's a bunch of discrete special case rules and 3 core resolution modes (AD&D, Classic Traveller), even in the same settings.

Classic Traveller (CT) has several different mechanics in rules:

1. 2d6+custom mods for custom TN+ by specific skill;
2. 2d6 ±1 for Att + Skill level +Wpn'sArmorMod + Wpn'sRangeMod ≥ 8 (Combat);
3. Nd6 < attribute+skill (strongly alluded to in Bk 0, and used a couple times in adventures, but per Marc Miller, his original intent);
4. 2d6 ≤ rating modified by attributes (some skills, encounter checks),
5. 2d6 + mods for high attributes ≥ listed TN (Character prior experience).

This is usually simplified by GM's to a variation of #2: 2d6 ±1 for att +Skill for 6+/8+/10+ or 5+/8+/11+. The latter is typically those who used Striker/AHL in place of Bk1 combat. And most keep #5 in that context.
Some go more flexible... but almost none use all 5 modes in play.

Meanwhile, MegaTraveller (MT) has one core resolution: 2d6 + AssetA + AssetB for N+ to succeed, (3d6-(AssetA+AssetB))× BaseTimeIncrement for time taken. Assets may be any of ①Attribute/5 ⤵ ② Skill ③ Ship's Computer Rating ④ other ratings in the 1-8 range.
There are 7 difficulties - 5 explicit, two implicit. So Auto, 3+, 7+, 11+, 15+, 19+, fail. So, running it, there's a lot more consistency of capability, but a strong tendency to mechanicalize many things not using Mechanics in CT, despite the same setting. It also tends to make GM's go more skill rolls and fewer "You're skilled, you succeed."

Due to the way tasks work in Combat, MT is a MUCH deadlier game than CT, too. A .22LR is able to kill all but the strongest in MT, as it can do up to 8 dice of damage to attributes, and a peak roll of 48 exceeds the max physicals of a human of 3×15; CT, it only does 2d to attributes. The basic rifle in CD is 3d, while in MT, it can be 1, 2, 3, 6, or 12 dice. Both games, injury reduces attributes, and since attributes are generated on 2d6... and only STR, DEX, and END normally take damage...,

Then, comparing that to T20:Traveller's Handbook, using the d20 system... was another feel entirely. Neither like CT nor MT, nor D&D... A different range of potential damages, a different range of skill effects, different attribute scaling, the system of Feats.... I run all three in the same setting, the game feels different to me as a GM, and to my players, because the nature of the character ratings and how they change play are different. We playtested T20...

Now, for a GM less prone to reach for mechanics, this may not matter outside combat...
The "sometimes we even roll the dice" GM isn't playing the ruleset 90% of the time; they're telling a story informed by the character sheets. That's fun for some; it's not what I'm there for. I want the mechanics, the game, to matter. And so the result of different mechanics is quickly felt when I run... both by the players and by me.

We have a problem with not having enough GMs, and part of this problem is that games are designed by GMs and not by typical players, because GMing is always similar. I would never want to GM, because the way most games are designed for GMs to be god and I really dont like this kind of elitism and dont want myself to be associated with it in any form.

You really should read more varied games. GM authority is quite different in most of the PBTA/AWE games, and in games like Cosmic Patrol, where GMing rotates. quite a few post-2000 games explore different GMing limits and final authority (several put the final rules authority to the table as a whole by vote).

 

[Tigris]

You really should read more varied games. GM authority is quite different in most of the PBTA/AWE games, and in games like Cosmic Patrol, where GMing rotates. quite a few post-2000 games explore different GMing limits and final authority (several put the final rules authority to the table as a whole by vote).

I do not know Awe games but for the PbtA games I did read (which I all found bad/a waste of time except masks and ironsworn) this is not true.


In PbtA games, at least like many GMs use them, its OSR level bad. You are right that they get specific GM turns and actions etc, but there is the "the narrative defines the action" thing. You can see this in the 1 HP dragon example and other things.


Meaning that what players can do is by the rules not given but by the narrative. And the GM decides in them if it makes sense. Like if you can shoot at the dragon or if this just does no damage because of the thick scales, so god is limited in how much they can annoy players with their GM turns but they can still decide what is possible leaving the players entirely to the arbitrariness of the GM.


Also rotating GMing is just a bandaid for the GM is god/elite problem and especially is no solution for players not wanting to GM in the first place.


Also or course GMing different systems may feel different but thats because the different systems are different, but the GMing compared to player is similar.

have you ever felt in a game more as a Dungeon Slave then Master? Where you were powerless out of any real control and could not decide anything, and where purely left to the arbitrariness of the players?


Or did you ever feel the same as all the other players, not in a special position, just like 1 player at the table? And more importantly did the other players ever feel like that?

 

[aramis erak]

I do not know Awe games but for the PbtA games I did read (which I all found bad/a waste of time except masks and ironsworn) this is not true.

AWE and PBTA are near synonyms; AWE is the narrower one. Both relate to the original game of that line

In PbtA games, at least like many GMs use them, its OSR level bad. You are right that they get specific GM turns and actions etc, but there is the "the narrative defines the action" thing. You can see this in the 1 HP dragon example and other things.'

You have just shown a lack of commonality of anything I'd consider useful in analysis.

Meaning that what players can do is by the rules not given but by the narrative. And the GM decides in them if it makes sense. Like if you can shoot at the dragon or if this just does no damage because of the thick scales, so god is limited in how much they can annoy players with their GM turns but they can still decide what is possible leaving the players entirely to the arbitrariness of the GM.

And here you double down on that... You've broken good form twice in two paragraphs, so politeness restricts me to

Also rotating GMing is just a bandaid for the GM is god/elite problem and especially is no solution for players not wanting to GM in the first place.

Again, you show gross ignorance and profound disrespect for playstyles other than your own. Someone more polite than me might simply put you on ignore to wallow in your narrow worldview; I'll just point out you've essentially insulted a significant number of people who have really good times running a variety of games with highly positive effects.
I'll note I'm not an OSR fan, but there are a bunch here. I do respect the genuine Old School - which the OSR generally isn't, because the OSR is a narrowish subset of genuine old school play.
I am a story-first GM part of the time, and am one of many here.
I do like rotating GMing, because it flattens the power dynamic unless someone participating is an incurable ass.
I do like the one PBTA linked game I've run; I've read a bunch more, and found their subject matter problematic, save for MASHED, Ironsworn, and Starforged.

Also or course GMing different systems may feel different but thats because the different systems are different, but the GMing compared to player is similar.

have you ever felt in a game more as a Dungeon Slave then Master? Where you were powerless out of any real control and could not decide anything, and where purely left to the arbitrariness of the players?


Or did you ever feel the same as all the other players, not in a special position, just like 1 player at the table? And more importantly did the other players ever feel like that?

Yes, specifically in Cosmic Patrol, Ars Magica, and a few others... due to rotating GMing, Narrative trumping rules, and a group of like minded participants.

Oh, and nice goalpost shifting on the GMing feel issue.

Offense definitely felt, whether intended or not.