Where did Ability + Skill 1st Appear?

[howandwhy99]

The playtest update mentioned how skills may be changed to keep certain classes appropriately skillful regardless of ability scores. This kind of breaks with tradition, which led me to my question.

Where did the Ability (or Modifier) + Skill Modifier first appear?
How about just in D&D?

Was it 2eAD&D proficiencies? GURPS (or The Fantasy Trip)? What?

It sounds like they may be leaning away from layering modifiers on rolls, as with advantage/disadvantage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

HERO, GURPS, and TFT all use it, so it dates back at least to the late 1970s or early 1980s.

 

[delericho]

How about this for a radical thought: get rid of the Rogue class, give the Fighter (and other classes) access to the Rogue's 'skill' abilities, and increase the penalties associated with wearing armour. That way, what was once a Rogue becomes just a lightly-armoured (and armed?) Fighter.

Conan and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were all thieves as well as fighters.

(Of course, I'm well aware that I've just advocated getting rid of one of the big-four sacred cow classes. So it won't happen. But the moment 3e added the consistent skill system, Rogues became somewhat redundant... and anyway, making stealth a unique feature of one particular class removes it as an option from all other classes (and so most groups). I'm not sure that removing the Rogue isn't the right thing to do.)

 

[Scott DeWar]

I remember that the first ed A D and D had wilderness and dungeoneers survival guides. These books were the precursors to 2 ed's NWP's.

having said that, I know GURPS was well ahead of D and D in this ball game.

 

[the Jester]

D&D started using it in 3e.

 

[Voadam]

The playtest update mentioned how skills may be changed to keep certain classes appropriately skillful regardless of ability scores. This kind of breaks with tradition, which led me to my question.

Where did the Ability (or Modifier) + Skill Modifier first appear?
How about just in D&D?

Was it 2eAD&D proficiencies? GURPS (or The Fantasy Trip)? What?

It sounds like they may be leaning away from layering modifiers on rolls, as with advantage/disadvantage.

AD&D NWPs (introduced in 1e supplements starting with Oriental Adventures and added to the 2e PH as an optional system) were only barely an ability + skill modifier system. The ones that allowed a roll instead of being feat like abilities (such as blindfighting) were straight roll under ability score mechanics with an unattractive option to get a +1 bonus per additional NWP added. Its been a while but I think some had inherent penalties as well to represent inherently difficult tasks.

 

[Voadam]

Hmm, now that I think about it thief skills in 1e AD&D out of the PH had ability modifiers that added on top of level based skill ability so I think that was the first ability + skill mechanic for skills in D&D. I don't think OD&D or basic D&D had stat modifiers for skills.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Today, 02:19 AM #8 (permalink)
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[Dannyalcatraz]

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[Li Shenron]

How about this for a radical thought: get rid of the Rogue class, give the Fighter (and other classes) access to the Rogue's 'skill' abilities, and increase the penalties associated with wearing armour. That way, what was once a Rogue becomes just a lightly-armoured (and armed?) Fighter.

Conan and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were all thieves as well as fighters.

(Of course, I'm well aware that I've just advocated getting rid of one of the big-four sacred cow classes. So it won't happen. But the moment 3e added the consistent skill system, Rogues became somewhat redundant... and anyway, making stealth a unique feature of one particular class removes it as an option from all other classes (and so most groups). I'm not sure that removing the Rogue isn't the right thing to do.)

That would kind of mean to remove an entire character concept/class which is not guilty of anything, to salvage a ruleset (skills) which doesn't work well enough.