Where did all the specialty priests go?

[Al]

So where did they?

A couple of weeks ago, I downloaded a passage on Wee Jas (she is in my opinion one of the most interesting deities to worship- better than the standard fluffy bunny type good deities or the mwahaha evil deities). Below the good solid details on dogma, history, personality and the like, it had the description of her specialty priest, the Archpriests, not to mention quite a few special impositions on her priests due to dogma.

And that made me think: why are all of the clerics in the PHB vanilla flavoured?

Fair enough. The standard DnD punter doesn't care about ethos, background, dogma, rituals, saints or prayers. He plays a cleric because he wants to be able to bash baddies and heal mates. He grabs a couple of domains he thinks will be good and hey presto- we have another machine-made, candy-floss generic cleric. So I didn't blame WotC for catering to the masses.

And then they missed another chance: Deities & Demigods. Now, there would be a few at the far reaches of dungeon hack mentality who would go and stomp on Thor, but for the most part, Deities & Demigods was a book for roleplayers, not for statbuilders. They could have introduced or adapted some of the old specialty priests, or at least translated the dogma into some concrete guidelines, just to make the clerics slightly more differentiated.

That's the lament, really. That clerics, despite serving radically different gods, adhering to totally alien dogmas and swearing by utterly distinct codes, look so similar. Yes, they have their domains, and yes, if you-are-good-you-turn-and-if-evil-you-rebuke. But other than that, where's the distinction? Forgive me if I'm wrong, ranting or both, but I just find it sad that WotC missed a golden opportunity to adapt some of the old specialty priests.

I like playing clerics. They always seemed to me the most interesting characters: a warrior of deeper ideals and principles, complex philosophies, unique oaths and idiosyncracies specific to his religion. Compared to them, many of the other classes seem very shallow. But the crushing of specialty priests, and the reduction of a broad diversity of religions to just differing in domains and what type of energy they channel seems pitiful. Now I'll just go and roll up another full-plate-wearing, morningstar-wielding, shield-bearing, undead-turning clone with ranks in Heal, Concentration, Diplomacy and Spellcraft.

PS: If you are fed up with my self-pity, I'd be very appreciative for any 3e adaptations of the old specialty priests, or even the sites where I can find the old 2e versions so I can have a shot at them myself.

 

[ForceUser]

I don't miss specialty clerics. They were a pain in the butt, and I'm glad WotC streamlined the whole affair. Besides, clerics in 3E are plenty customizable, and if a person finds them all vanilla-flavored, then he's not using his imagination. The way I see it, your domains define your areas of specialty such that two clerics of the same faith might be radically different in both outlook, appearance, and domain powers. Not to mention there are prestige classes to help flesh things out. A 14th-level cleric of Pelor with Good and Healing domains is quite different from a 7th cleric/7th Radiant Servant of Pelor with the Mysticism, Protection and Sun domains. There are plenty of customization options available in 3E, and I like them better than specialty priests from 2E, which I am happy to forget forever. Ultimately, the differences between priests all come down to how you choose to roleplay.

 

[EricNoah]

Speciality Priests can be modelled in two ways (and you can combine them): domains, and prestige classes.

However, with either or both you still get someone who can tank up quite a bit, particularly with armor. Here are my thoughts on some very minor tweaks you can make to the core cleric class to create something slightly less martial.

1) Replace Heavy Armor Proficiency with either Scribe Scroll or Extra Turning.

2) Take away both Heavy Armor and Medium Armor and replace with BOTH Scribe Scroll and Extra Turning.

3) Look at some of the Divine feats in Defenders of the Faith -- particularly the ones that allow you to use your Turn Undead attempts for other things. Maybe swap one of those in for that Scribe Scroll feat instead.

Combine these with domain selection, feat selection, multiclassing options, and you've got yourself some variety.

Look to a book like the FR Faiths and Pantheons for examples of prestige classes as paths to becoming a "specialty priest."

You could also consider designing new domains -- maybe a unique domain for each god.

 

[vorpan]

I have to disagree with forceuser. I LOVE the cleric class. Really. My actual character is a Aasimar 1st level Paladin who will multiclass to cleric and go all the way. But the clerics look roughly the same. for a start, they all gain the same spells when they advance levels. The domain powers will afect what your character can do but the greater part of his resources will be the same no matter what. It' very differente from a Wizard because the wizard has to learn he spells and, in theory, each wizard will have a different set of spells at a given level. Again, that;s just theory because most players learn the same wizards spells when they gain level, buy the same scrolls when they can etc. They just go for the most popuar ones. But this does not change the fact that they can make a different spell list. The clerics can't. All spells are given. And if you think about it, that's their main ability. The turning or rebuking will make a differece but, unless you're in Ravenloft or something, you're not gonna use it as much as the spell list.

I think that there should be more differences between the clerics of different deities. As for RP, if the players just read the deities description well i think that's covered.

 

[ForceUser]

If you want more variety in your spell list you could do what Piratecat allows his divine casters to do: swap out PHB spells for approved spells from other d20 sources. Your spell list stays the same size and you can do things other clerics can't do (at the cost of losing some standard cleric spells).

 

[garyh]

Player's Option

For the most part, 3E is vastly superior to 2E. With that in mind, I have to express nostalgia for a character I created using 2e's Player's Option rules.

His name was Artillian Dunhal, a NG Cleric of Abrant the Defender. Using the Point Buy system, I gave him Fighter HP and BAB (or THAC0, back in the old days), access to warrior proficiencies, and increased weaponry options. To counter that, he had access to about 1/2 the spells of a standard 2E cleric, as that was all he had points for.

He had a lot of unique abilities, and I could look at his class abilities list and see a distinct theme and focus.

I realize the PO rules were a bit complex, but I really liked the way they turned out for Artillian.

I used him as a NPC in a 3E campaign I DM'ed with a healing-lite party, and the only way I could translate him was as a Clr4/Ftr2 with the Protection and Healing domains.

I don't know about you, but it I sure thought he lost a lot of flavor in the translation.

 

[Staffan]

The reason specialty priests were nixed was that each separate priesthood becomes its own class, and that's a total nightmare to balance.

His name was Artillian Dunhal, a NG Cleric of Abrant the Defender. Using the Point Buy system, I gave him Fighter HP and BAB (or THAC0, back in the old days), access to warrior proficiencies, and increased weaponry options. To counter that, he had access to about 1/2 the spells of a standard 2E cleric, as that was all he had points for.[/quote
So, basically he was a fighter who could also cast cleric spells. The Player's Option system was not exactly balanced, no.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I agree with what Eric said, and would probably be willing to take it a step further, to class variants.

The cleric class has a lot of features that might be swapped out for something more appropriate. Clerics of Olidammara or Mask might have good Reflex and Will saves, and poor Fort saves. Clerics of golds of magic might swap out the cleric's BAB for the wizard's, and get a metamagic feat. (I'd never let them up their BAB, though; to do that, take a PrC.) Clerics might trade in their Undead Turning for a couple more skills added to their list, and 4 skill points per level. This is off the top of my head, so these may not be well balanced.

I'd say there's a market for a supplement with guidelines on creating cleric variants to better fit certain gods.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

I don't agree! Wizards all get the same spells. clerics all get the same spells. ETC. The difference between MU's and Clerics is the perceived availability of different spells. Sit down and make up a spell progression list for your cleric. stick to what you think a Cleric of Wee Jas or whomever would have. I'll give you an example and also MY pet peeve of the spells for clerics. 0 level no Detect poison. 1st levl no bless, bless water, curse water, divine favor, sanctuary. Instead give some skills in Knowledge or a feat. I know this isn't what you are looking for but even if they had done speciality priests people would be on the list trying to swap out one for another Here is my beef on the spells. It has to do with the protection from spells and even more so the Bless/Curse Water. Why in the depths of all that is pure by Pholtus did they think you needed these spells? I realize we've had them all along but couldn't you have just thrown them into the section on creating the fonts? Plus why couldn't a neutral create both by praying for each once a day? Then your covered no matter what happens. I would have rather they completed this in the same way they did protection spells or like I said just have DM's rule zero it. I do agree it would have been nice to have had a work up of a cleric for a diety from D&DG's instead of the section on monothesis and duallity gods.

 

[Chun-tzu]

The reason specialty priests were nixed was that each separate priesthood becomes its own class, and that's a total nightmare to balance.

While you've got a point, Staf, I think there's a little more room for variants. 2E went too far in the variation it allowed, but I'd allow things like:

• wizard's or cleric's BAB
• d6 or d8
• up to 2 extra skills added to skill list
• 2 to 4 skill points per level
• changing the 2 good saves
• trading in Undead Turning or spontaneous casting
• spontaneous casting of other kinds of spells
• extra (specified) feats