D&D General Drow as in Cow or Drow as in Snow: Where did the Dark Elves Come From?

[Mannahnin]

Basically, one of the Brothers Grimm put forward the "calling them 'white' actually means calling them 'beautiful'" theory, and one or two others have offered related takes, but that idea doesn't seem to fly based on the historical etymology.

Do you want to read that again? Jakob Grimm suggested that calling them white meant they were MORALLY good. Alaric Hall is the researcher suggesting (in his Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity) the beauty theory, and that's what that passage is explaining is more plausible.

 

[Alzrius]

Do you want to read that again? Jakob Grimm suggested that calling them white meant they were MORALLY good.

My point is that Grimm's take is an outlier, and one that seems to have very little to support it. The stronger etymological theory is that calling them white was, in fact, a reference to their complexion.

 

[Mannahnin]

My point is that his theory of "white = morally good" is an outlier, and one that seems to have very little to support it. The stronger etymological theory is that calling them white was, in fact, a reference to their complexion.

What?

You wrote that Grimm "put forward that calling them white actually means calling them beautiful". When that's not what Grimm suggested, that's what Hall has argued.

I was explicitly disagreeing with Grimm and using Hall as support for my opinion. But you seemed like you were disagreeing. You wrote "it doesn't seem like it" in response to me saying the name implied beauty, not light.

 

[Alzrius]

What?

You wrote that Grimm "put forward that calling them white actually means calling them beautiful". When that's not what Grimm suggested, that's what Hall has argued.

I was explicitly disagreeing with Grimm and using Hall as support for my opinion. But you seemed like you were disagreeing. You wrote "it doesn't seem like it" in response to me saying the name implied beauty, not light.

I may have misunderstood your initial post, then; to me it sounded like you were defending the idea that the original references weren't about their complexion, but their morality (which I disagree with).

 

[PHATsakk43]

I may have misunderstood your initial post, then; to me it sounded like you were defending the idea that the original references weren't about their complexion, but their morality (which I disagree with).

Based on the sources listed in the Wikipedia article, it seems like both were implied or at least could be inferred.

Getting back to another comment, the same Wiki article also says that there are scholarly interpretations of the dökkálfar (which are typically assumed to be dwarves) to be the same creatures as also referred to as svartálfar.

While I think there is a common origin to a lot of this stuff going back to the Prose Edda the one thing I don't think Gary was reading was it.

I'll also say, that while I think Gary was more influenced by Tolkien, D&D drow are distinct and of his own imagination, just as much as any of these other things are. Whether I'm right or wrong, I will agree that there is far less distinction between Gary's giants and those in The Roaring Trumpet than what D&D drow would become.

I suppose Ed Greenwood put it best, and I'm paraphrasing, "Gary's two greatest contributions to gaming were #1 creating D&D and #2 creating the drow."

 

[Mannahnin]

Based on the sources listed in the Wikipedia article, it seems like both were implied or at least could be inferred.

Getting back to another comment, the same Wiki article also says that there are scholarly interpretations of the dökkálfar (which are typically assumed to be dwarves) to be the same creatures as also referred to as svartálfar.

Sorry, typically assumed by whom?

Alfar are elves (bearing in mind somewhat more nebulous definitions in play) and Dvergr are dwarves. John Lindow is cited in the wiki article as being one among some scholars speculating that dokkalfar may be dwarves by another name, but the baseline linguistic record and standard translations are elves = alfar, dwarves = dvergr. So Gary's was sticking to the mainstream interpretation there.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Sorry, typically assumed by whom?

Alfar are elves (bearing in mind somewhat more nebulous definitions in play) and Dvergr are dwarves. John Lindow is cited in the wiki article as being one among some scholars speculating that dokkalfar may be dwarves by another name, but the baseline linguistic record and standard translations are elves = alfar, dwarves = dvergr. So Gary's was sticking to the mainstream interpretation there.

I think there is more to it than you're suggesting.

I first became aware of this whole thing, specifically Tolkien reimagining Norse elves as the tall & fair concept that was simply not the same as that of most of the public, was when I first read The Hobbit in the early 1990s as my school library had the annotated version by Douglas A. Anderson which went into exacting detail about the mythological sources of Tolkien's creation.

Outside of Tolkien, a dwarf, elf, or a gnome were much less distinct entities as we now see them, but all were sort of a faerie type being. For example, in the novella you mentioned, The Roaring Trumpet, Alfhelm is mentioned but a single time:

“Child of Earth, you weary me.” He stared straight into Shea’s eyes, and once more there was that sensation of an icicle piercing his brain. But Heimdall’s voice was smooth. “From which of the nine worlds do you come, strangest of strangers, with garments like to none I have seen?”​

​

Shea thought. The question was a little like, “Have you quit beating your wife?” He asked cautiously: “Which nine worlds?”​

​

Heimdall laughed lightly. “Ho—I thought I was to be the questioner here. But there is the abode of the gods that is Asgard, and that is one world; and the homes of the giants, that are Jötunheim, Muspellheim, Niflheim, and Hell, or five worlds in all. There is Alfheim where live the dwarfs; (emphasis mine) and Svartalfheim and Vanaheim which we do not know well, though it is said the Vanes shall stand with us at the Time. Lastly there is Midgard, which is overrun with such worms as you.”​

​

Shea yawned. The mead and warmth were beginning to pull up on him. “To tell the truth, I don’t come from any of them, but from outside your system of worlds entirely.”​

​

One of these "dwarfs" (sic) is encountered in the story, briefly, and is remarked upon by the narrator as looking like Santa Claus.

I suppose that the primary thing is that whether they were called elves or dwarves isn't particularly relevent if you're using a modern Tolkienesq definition of the terms when that was not the case. Basically, even in cases where "elf" was used, the entity that was described would have appeared much as we would identify as a dwarf or gnome.

I'm currently living abroad in rural Ontario and most of my Tolkien library is 1,000 miles away in Raleigh, NC, so it's a bit hard for me to find a lot of these quotations, but there is significant scholarly discussion regarding Tolkien's use of terms and redefining creatures from Norse myth, which included making part of his Noldorian elves "deep elves" which he had taken from Norse myths and was part of the reason we still see the term "gnome" among others used in The Silmarillion when referring to the Noldorian "deep elves".

 

[JDR]

I met Frank Mentzer back when I was a kid and heard him speak in person over many days, and he pronounced it drow (as in grow) on many occasions, so that’s how I have always, and will always pronounce the word.

In fact, it’s only been in the last few years that I’ve started hearing it pronounced like cow, and it still sounds extremely odd to me.

Started with basic in 77 and we've always pronounced it drow as in grow as well. Sounds more sinister than cow.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Started with basic in 77 and we've always pronounced it drow as in grow as well. Sounds more sinister than cow.

I wonder if there is some regionally based way on how it’s pronounced.

I’ve played since 1991 and never heard it pronounced rhyming with grow ever. This involved a lot of different people at different tables as well.

I didn’t even know it was controversial until fairly recently. I do remember reading the Sage Advice suggested pronunciation sometime in the early 2000s while I was reading through all 250 issues on the CDROM during my 6 years in the USN.

To be honest, I think there’s a lot more D&D terms that get mispronounced than drow.

Hell, I was probably 22 before I knew that “melee” isn’t “mee-lee”.

 

[OB1]

Cow. Forever Cow.