Where did my options go? - The New Paradigm

[LostSoul]

I see this sentiment pop up every now and again and I must say that I am as confounded by it as others may be confounded by "it's too videogamey". So I'll just ask: how is 4E like "old skool" D&D, either OD&D or BD&D? I mean, other than the fact that it is designed to be played as a tactical skirmish game?

I think it's because the DM's authority to resolve any action the way he wants to (save combat, though he does decide when an encounter occurs) is like older editions of the game.

In 3e, at least the impression I had, was that the rules defined the world and therefore defined how you would resolve any action you took.

 

[Kvantum]

I think it's because the DM's authority to resolve any action the way he wants to (save combat, though he does decide when an encounter occurs) is like older editions of the game.

In 3e, at least the impression I had, was that the rules defined the world and therefore defined how you would resolve any action you took.

3e had a rule for everything. 4e has a rule for everything... in combat. Nothing else is really important enough/awful enough to need rules spelled out. Completely different paradigm, as the OP pointed out quite elegantly. Some will like it, and others, not.

I'm strongly in the "not" camp. Those in the other camp, hey, have fun with your game.

/Would 4e D&D be as controversial if it were called Chainmail 2e?

 

[Lizard]

Although it is covered in your list, another important decision advanced players will want to make is what feats to take at higher levels. This is important because some very strong paragon feats have stat requirements, and may require you to move stats in ways you otherwise would not.

Weren't we told the days of having to plot your character from first level were behind us now?

Likewise, weren't we told that multiclassing "works" now -- any combination is viable and balanced? We sacrificed a lot of flexibility on the altar of balance -- when I asked "How can I twink my F/W?", I honestly didn't expect to be told "Go for Warlord/Wizard".

IAE, I like the character. He has several cool powers, he has decent knowledge skills. Pick up ES at 2nd level, Novice Power or Ritual Caster at 4th, maybe weapon focus at 6th. Iron Will at 12th, duh. 8th, acolyte power, 10th...probably plate proficiency or adept power.

To answer another post -- part of the problem isn't the number of decision points, but the limited set of decision OPTIONS at each point. Two of four at-wills? I mean, I get that it's hard to balance a power you can use every round and give each class unique ones, but FOUR? Six would be, I think, a bare minimum; eight would be good. (And, let's face it, since a fighter's job is Minion Clearing, Cleave is kind of a no-brainer, so you really only have one to pick.)

There are fewer feats, and thus, fewer viable feats. Yes, I could have picked Skill Training (Stealth) or something, but my point wasn't to show "Ha ha, I can make a sucky character". I don't set up experiments to fail. I set out to build a character I'd actually want to play, and, since 4e is going for the 1e retro vibe, I decided to remake my favorite character from 9th grade. There's something uber-cool about a condescending high elf, bedecked in ornate plate scale armor, wielding arcane forces as easily as he swings a blade.

And, of course, no skill points. This makes it hard to 'dabble' in skills, even for flavor's sake, and barring going for pre-reqs, it seems wasteful to blow a feat on Skill Training.

 

[MadMaligor]

3e had a rule for everything. 4e has a rule for everything... in combat. Nothing else is really important enough/awful enough to need rules spelled out. Completely different paradigm, as the OP pointed out quite elegantly. Some will like it, and others, not.

I'm strongly in the "not" camp. Those in the other camp, hey, have fun with your game.

/Would 4e D&D be as controversial if it were called Chainmail 2e?

Kvantum, Im reposting what I wrote in another thread but it kinda answeres that chainmail question...


"I cant wait for the 6th edition people to keep arguing with the 7th edition people about how its not D&D anymore, and all the "Old school" 4th edition people talk about playing with the guys who came back to 4th Ed D&D from the days of playing Basic/Expert D&D. Then we can read all the nostalgia posts and how Vivendi ruined D&D when they purchased Hasbro and turned it into World of Dungeoncraft and Dragonslaying.

People, listen. Gygax, Kuntz, and Arneson screwed you all when they released Greyhawk and Blackmoore on what amounts to Day 2 of the birth of D&D. Game over, end of story. We can talk about jumping the shark all day, and how Unearthed Arcana became the blasphemy of D&D, 2nd edition handbooks created the bastard children of all races and classes, and 3.5 is a simulation not a roleplaying game...blah blah blah blah blah.

Until you start rolling percentile dice to hit, and HP charts are based on appendages, and halflings cant wear shoes, and every class gets the ability to shoot some elemental based laser out their eyeballs, we are still playing D&D.

We need to move past this. Its getting old."

 

[Jack99]

@OP

Awesome post. If any of my players were still one the fence, I would definitely show them your post. Luckily for me, I have already managed to beat them into submission, and they are thus already gung-ho about 4e.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

Clearly the lack of options is a result of WotC/Hasbro's marketing strategy.

3.0/3.5 proved there was virtually no limit tot the amount of supplemental meterial people would buy.

No that's not entirely fair. Hell, TSR knew it....
So, we will soon begin to see the avalanche of race/class/feet/power/paragon/magic/monster/heroic/ equipment/magic item etc./etc. "resource books" books.

And I defy anyone who says it ain't gonna happen.

It is the nature of the beast...

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

Oops. Double post. Sorry

 

[TwoSix]

Clearly the lack of options is a result of WotC/Hasbro's marketing strategy.

3.0/3.5 proved there was virtually no limit tot the amount of supplemental meterial people would buy.

No that's not entirely fair. Hell, TSR knew it....
So, we will soon begin to see the avalanche of race/class/feet/power/paragon/magic/monster/heroic/ equipment/magic item etc./etc. "resource books" books.

And I defy anyone who says it ain't gonna happen.

It is the nature of the beast...

I don't think there's many pro-4e supporters who deny this, since few of us begrudge WotC and Hasbro their ability to make money. I enjoy getting new books, personally.

And if the new books are of the quality of the recent Dragon articles, avalanche away.

 

[moritheil]

WotC was worried that they gave too many options, too many choices, and that making an acceptable character was a labyrinthine process full of obscure feat and class selections (to be fair, it was, if you gamed with powergamers.) So they streamlined it.

In streamlining it they took away a lot of neat stuff, and dumbed it down a bit. There are bound to be those who miss the complexity of 3.x.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

I don't think there's many pro-4e supporters deny this, since few of us begrudge WotC and Hasbro their ability to make money. I enjoy getting new books, personally.

And if the new books are of the quality of the recent Dragon articles, avalance away.

Well that is the 1 million $ question now isn't it? Will be Quanity or Quality? Or Both?

Again, it's the nature of the beast-I certain won't begrudge WotC/Hasbro either.

TSR set the pace, with it's hundereds of "guides", and it proved profitable enough....

But then I will in the end, be the one who decides if I buy them, now won't I? And honestly unless the bar is set very high, I am not paying for it.


On a side note: HA! I put Feet, where I wanted to write feat! So much for proof reading....