Where did my options go? - The New Paradigm

[JohnSnow]

TSeriously, there have been literally thousands of such characters in thousands of D&D groups over the course of quite a few years, so I gotta think there's some empirical evidence that contradicts unilaterally deeming them unbalanced and unsuitable for play.

I don't think any D&D player anywhere can legitimately argue that the wizard (or magic-user, or whatever) is NOT an inherently unbalanced character.

And the cleric is worse. He's only "balanced" if you force him to be the band-aid monkey.

The spellcasters can be dragged kicking and screaming into balance by:

Gimping their rate of advancement so they end up a few levels behind.
Requiring all spellcasters to start at Level 1, so that high-level wizards are rare in your campaign. That means if a player's high-level character dies, he can either make a high-level "other" or start over again at Level 1.
A DM who consciously designs adventures so that the wizard's powers aren't always the only way out.
Rigidly enforcing spells per day and multiple encounters per day. A wizard who can't "go nova" is better balanced.
Some combination of the above.

You're honestly going to claim that the 3e (and earlier) wizard is a properly balanced character? Really?

People can have plenty of fun with unbalanced rules. It's just their fellows who enjoy it less.

 

[Nifft]

People can have plenty of fun with unbalanced rules. It's just their fellows who enjoy it less.

Just to preempt a counter-argument: it is possible to enjoy playing a mechanically inferior character -- such as a non-Elf in MERP. However, that choice should be orthogonal to the choice of class (or more generally the choice of role).

Having balanced races & classes by default doesn't prevent one from unbalancing them later, if such is desired, for whatever reason.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Reynard]

I don't think any D&D player anywhere can legitimately argue that the wizard (or magic-user, or whatever) is NOT an inherently unbalanced character....
People can have plenty of fun with unbalanced rules. It's just their fellows who enjoy it less.

Define "balance", because the 4E definition is a new definition, one made specifically for 4E. it means balance and parity over the course of a single encounter, which has never, ever been an aspect of balance in D&D in any previous edition. The wizard and cleric were quite balanced in 1E and 2E (for very different reasons) and, assuming a DM that enforces the actual rules, pretty well balanced in 3E, over the course of the game. This last bit is important because D&D has always been intended to play over the long term. Early weak levels balance out powerful high levels; role-playing restrictions balance out power disparities.

The reason balance is different in 4E is because the nature of the game and the intended style of play has changed. The entire "culture" of D&D has been altered to be "get together with your buds, throw some dice and drink some Buds," an attempt to take a very niche hobby rewarded by its devotion to that niche and attempt to make it mainstream (or, at least as mainstream as WoW). It won't work. those powergamers and deep immersion simulationists, neither of which is supported by 4E, might make up a minority of the players but they make up a majority of the purchasers -- who are the truly important ones. As such, it will not take long for splats dedicated to the number crunchers and the world builders start coming out. They'll buy 'em.

 

[The Little Raven]

The wizard and cleric were quite balanced in 1E and 2E (for very different reasons) and, assuming a DM that enforces the actual rules, pretty well balanced in 3E, over the course of the game. This last bit is important because D&D has always been intended to play over the long term. Early weak levels balance out powerful high levels; role-playing restrictions balance out power disparities.

And this, to me and a lot of other people, is the worst way to try and "balance" characters. Saying "Hey, you suck now, but you'll be cool in the future" fails when you never reach that future. Same with "You're cool now, but you'll suck later." And since WotC's market research determined that most games do not last the amount of time that this method of "balance" requires to be successful (which is debatable in and of itself), then it makes sense for them to change the game to reflect how people play it.

those powergamers and deep immersion simulationists, neither of which is supported by 4E, might make up a minority of the players but they make up a majority of the purchasers -- who are the truly important ones.

Current sales numbers don't bear this out.

 

[Reynard]

Current sales numbers don't bear this out.

Current sales are for the core rules. Core rules sales are always good. It is supplement sales that really matter in keeping the game (or rather, an edition) alive -- as we have ample evidence for. Now, perhaps the DDI model will be sufficient to change this and there won't have to be a supplement treadmill to keep the coffers full, or another sales paradigm takes over. But assuming we're talking largely about the same pool of players -- which we are; WotC has even said they haven't started their marketting outside of the existing base yet, and won't until the fall -- the same rules apply for the moment.

 

[pawsplay]

While your melee fighter type character can choose from many different options to begin with, once he's in combat he's got his one or two things he does over and over again. The heavy armor fighter runs up and stands next to the monster, hitting with his greatsword. The spiked chain fighter does his tripping, or his moving with Opportunity attacks. The rogue gets into flanking position and proceeds to sneak attack. This does not generally vary from combat to combat either, except in situations where the monster is somehow "immune" to whatever your schtick is (undead for the rogue, for example), and then you generally spend the time trying to come up with creative solutions that vary from brilliant to extremely frustrating for the DM.

This is not my play experience. Maybe my players are just zany, I don't know.

 

[Thasmodious]

Illusionist - Both the wizard and the warlock have their fair share of illusions. Ghost sound is a cantrip, disguise self is an illusion, as is invisibility. The dedicated "illusionist" from most stories is usually a fey type who specializes in enchantments AND illusions. However, I admit it's missing, but I expect you'll see many more illusions in PHB II, if not before in the form of arcane powers.

We will have more illusions any day now. It's one of this month's Dragon articles.

 

[MadMaligor]

....The reason balance is different in 4E is because the nature of the game and the intended style of play has changed. The entire "culture" of D&D has been altered to be "get together with your buds, throw some dice and drink some Buds," an attempt to take a very niche hobby rewarded by its devotion to that niche and attempt to make it mainstream (or, at least as mainstream as WoW). It won't work. those powergamers and deep immersion simulationists, neither of which is supported by 4E, might make up a minority of the players but they make up a majority of the purchasers -- who are the truly important ones. As such, it will not take long for splats dedicated to the number crunchers and the world builders start coming out. They'll buy 'em.

Reynard, I dont want to come across as confrontational here, but I cant stress how wrong that paragraph is. I respect your opinion but as stated just above me, current sales numbers prove you wrong in so many ways. The culture of D&D has always been about friends, dice, and snacking till you burst. The whole cheetos thing didnt come from out of no where. Also, the idea that D&D is a niche hobby is like saying Basketball is a niche sport. Roleplaying, with its king of the hill Dungeons and Dragons, is one of the juggernaughts of the hobby industry.

The important players are your enthusiasts, not your fanatics. Bringing the game to your general population of enthusiasts and making it fun for all players involved will sell millions of books and keep the hobby alive. There is plenty of room for devotion of material to specific groups like your crazed simulation fanatics. But to curtail the game mechanic to a specific small group like that is commercial suicide. I would rather have something fun to play than something that mirrors real life no matter what the setting. Its a very broad generality but I think I speak for alot of people when I say I came to play a fantasy game in a fantasy setting. Im not looking for rules realism, Im looking for a balanced fun game that lets me be a wizard, warrior, thief, or cleric (or some version there of) and kill dragons and explore dungeons. Thats what this game has always been about.

3.5 is awesome for getting you real close to that simulation of a fantasy setting and will continue to be supported by outside groups. I think thats awesome, and I love that there is a place for all of us. But WotC and its Devs saw that it was getting away from what D&D truly is. When you start to play 4E, there is a reason people say it feels like your going backwards in terms of editions. It certainly is different in a number of ways and many grognards of old will rail against the fact that its called D&D. But it is D&D, in fact I would say it is getting back to its roots.

 

[JDillard]

This is not my play experience. Maybe my players are just zany, I don't know.

Are your games generally RAW, or do you have a lot of houserules and non-WotC splatbooks?

My games were always WotC products only (because a lot of the 3rd party stuff was crap, and it was easier to just say no and not worry than to try and figure out what was fairly balanced and what wasn't), and that paragraph is very indicative of our average combat.

 

[pawsplay]

Are your games generally RAW, or do you have a lot of houserules and non-WotC splatbooks?

My games were always WotC products only (because a lot of the 3rd party stuff was crap, and it was easier to just say no and not worry than to try and figure out what was fairly balanced and what wasn't), and that paragraph is very indicative of our average combat.

Completely RAW.