Where did my options go? - The New Paradigm

[Thasmodious]

So, I wanted to see a 4e fighter who could start with a "bad combat option" (Let's say, bare-knuckle brawler) and, via feats, make it into a "good combat option".

Take out the word feats. Feats are not the way you make characters in 4e.

Fighters are my favorite class and one of the things I was most excited about was all the buzz about how fighters were awesome again in 4e. So, when I got my hands on the books, I just started making fighters, I made about a dozen, made em at multiple levels, just to play and poke and try things out.

I made a bare knuckle brawler that turned out pretty well. He was no damage machine, but it was clear I couldn't make a damage machine from the beginning. I do lament that there is no unarmed feat that takes it from improvised weapon to proficiency bonus. But you can make one with your DM easily enough. That's neither here nor there. What I did see was that the best way to make a brawler was to do what I could do best, and that was be a defending machine. Fists aren't going to compare to swords anyway, so just make as tough a fighter as I can. Dwarf, 19 con at 1st, high str for damage, toughness, durable, weapon focus unarmed, focus power selection on inflicting conditions. There are lots of things I could do as I went along that would work quite well in a party, and he was as tough as they come.

Just with the fighter, I made a -

barbarian, that was easy - high str and con, hide armor, a maul, focus on heavy damage powers and knocking people down or around (6d6 brute strikes are FUN)

soldier type, polearm, short sword, light shield, powers and ability scores that had a nice synergy

an awesome, lightly armored, dex based spear fighter that used javelins for range and for short spear and shield fighting and carried a longspear for reach

a balls to the wall knight in plate armor with ye olde sword and board, killer defenses and nice shield options from powers and feats (like shield push)

My favorite, no doubt was the dwarf wizard/fighter (made him at 6th level). A tough as nails dwarf who loved to mix it up. He focused on close area spells, used a warhammer, took crushing blow as a 3rd lvl enc power swap, had dimension door, shield and expeditious retreat to chose from to help him get out of trouble.

I am really impressed with the wizard. I was worried that the price we would play for viable fighters would be wizards would lose that wizard feel. IMO, that didn't happen. Spellbooks, having choices no other class has, implements and their options, being the undisputed master of the ritual... All those add up to leaving the wizard versatile and, well, wizardly.

 

[MrGrenadine]

Same thing with a "two-weapon rogue". What is it you're looking for there? Take a Rogue, give him two weapons. He won't have any two-weapon specific exploits, but he can still Rogue it up with the best of them. That, or give a Two-weapon Ranger the Rogue multiclass feat. Two weapons, Thievery, and sneak attack 1/encounter, sounds like a two-weapon Rogue to me.

I appreciate that you're really enjoying 4e, and I hope to at some point as well, but as someone who loves playing rogues I have to tell you that being able to sneak attack *once an encounter* is tremendously underwhelming.

I'm currently trying to wrap my head around all the rogue power choices in 4e, and there's some great stuff in there, to be sure. I only wish that the new strategies and powers were *added* to what I had grown to enjoy in 3.5, instead of replacing them or making them less effective, (Once-an-encounter Tumble, I'm lookin' at you!).

I do agree that its impossible to build every choice into the game at its inception, and that, over time, 4e will become a much richer experience, (especially when user created and 3rd party material is added to the mix), and I'm looking forward to that.

MrG

 

[Benly]

I appreciate that you're really enjoying 4e, and I hope to at some point as well, but as someone who loves playing rogues I have to tell you that being able to sneak attack *once an encounter* is tremendously underwhelming.

Rogues sneak attack once per round, not once per encounter. You're limited by needing to get combat advantage, but that was there in 3.x anyway since the situations that give you combat advantage are largely the ones that allowed sneak attack in 3.x.

Unless you're a multiclass rogue, anyway, but then you're not exactly "playing a rogue".

 

[MrGrenadine]

Rogues sneak attack once per round, not once per encounter. You're limited by needing to get combat advantage, but that was there in 3.x anyway since the situations that give you combat advantage are largely the ones that allowed sneak attack in 3.x.

Unless you're a multiclass rogue, anyway, but then you're not exactly "playing a rogue".

Yeah, I agree completely--I was responding to JDs suggestion to go Ranger and multiclass Rogue to create a TWF Rogue.

MrG

 

[balard]

You can always be a rogue that multiclass into ranger...

To the OP, excellent post, I wish it was in portuguese to rub it in some faces..

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, I agree completely--I was responding to JDs suggestion to go Ranger and multiclass Rogue to create a TWF Rogue.

Bah, TWF Rogue is easy.

1/ Play a Rogue.
2/ Take the feat TWF.
DONE!

It's not double-your-damage like it was in 3e, but that's okay. The Rogue does excellent damage in 4e without any such tricks.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FadedC]

Bah, TWF Rogue is easy.

1/ Play a Rogue.
2/ Take the feat TWF.
DONE!

It's not double-your-damage like it was in 3e, but that's okay. The Rogue does excellent damage in 4e without any such tricks.

Cheers, -- N

The TWF feat is actually decent for a rogue too, it's not like he has a ton to do with that other hand.

 

[DandD]

Yeah. Also, a Ranger multiclassing with Rogue still got his hunter quarry-additional damage-thingie. Just refluff it that you are doing some backstabbing with your hunter quarry-thingie. And once per encounter, you can add up the damage with sneak attack.
No problem, unless you're devoid of imagination and incapable to see through your inner eye how that would work naratively.

 

[Eldorian]

Example?

Seriously. Show me a non-standard 4e fighter build which can be made viable via feat selection. It would do a lot to convince me the game is deeper than "Pick one of two basically pre-made characters per class".

Really? These don't leap out at you?

Most of the "nonstandard" as I see it comes from interesting multiclasses. Most classes multiclass best with a class from the same power source, but different role.

Take a fighter, focus on heavy/light blades/flails/any dex weapon I'm forgetting, two weapon fighting, and multiclass to ranger to pick up some highly damaging/maneuvering abilities, and perhaps a ranged/melee exploit for using when there are no melee options in the current fight.

Take a fighter, focus on secondary wisdom, multiclass to cleric and get party buffs/heals.

Take a fighter, focus on light blades, perhaps dual wield, shortsword and dagger, and get rogue multiclass and you get some ranged/melee attacks you didn't have before. Or hell, use the advantage of dual wield to use different class weapons for different fighter powers. Dual wield is a pretty good option actually, due to the versatility offered by making different types of attacks with main and offhand.

Take a fighter, grab warlord mutliclassing. Many warlord abilities don't require you to have a decent Int or Cha, just Str.

A fighter can fight with any melee weapon and basically be effective, tho military weapons are generally superior.

 

[Nifft]

The TWF feat is actually decent for a rogue too, it's not like he has a ton to do with that other hand.

Absolutely. And TWD is nice as well -- Rogues often don't have tons of options for feats, and not getting hit is really really good.

One of my favorite multi-class combos is Rogue (Rapier, Quickdraw, TWF, TWD) / Fighter feat -> Kensei. He's a tricky duelist / swashbuckler who hits hard when he fights fair, and harder when he doesn't.

Cheers, -- N