Where did random hit points come from?

[buzzard]

Owing to my prediliction for rolling ones when leveling up characters, I simply institute the 1/2+1 rule myself when I DM. It keeps things tidier IMHO.

buzzard

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

An interesting idea that Empire of the Petal Throne had in its first edition (c1975) was that you rolled your total HD each level

A similar modification I've seen is that hit points are rerolled every "adventure."

 

[Prince Atom]

Well, Palladium FRPG and Rifts make everyone equal: Everyone rolls 1d6 for hit points at every level.

And in GURPS, you have to pay 2 character points now for every HP if you want your total greater than your Strength score.

So I am in favor of random dice and different die sizes for classes, at least for D&D. That's part of its uniqueness.

You jest, but at least one once wildly popular game did exactly that.

Oh? Which was that?

And, btw, is your avatar Hellboy via PVP? Inquiring minds want to know!

TWK

 

[jdrakeh]

Oh? Which was that?

Fighting Fantasy (both the solo-game books and the original RPG). Granted it was far more popular in Europe and Australia than it was in the US, but it pretty much bankrolled Games Workshop in the beginning and inspired its Warhammer Fantasy setting (the Old World, the war with Chaos, and even the iconic squig originally appeared in the pages of Fighting Fantasy three years prior to the Warhammer publications hitting the shelves).

Fighting Fantasy is one of those games that had an incredible impact on certain aspects of the hobby, yet one that few people remember as it was largely overshadowed by its predecessors (Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay). There was supposed to be a d20 redux of the system, but the company who procured the license published something like two adventure modules and then fell off the map.

And, btw, is your avatar Hellboy via PVP? Inquiring minds want to know!

It's Heckboy

 

[Umbran]

I can see where people are coming from in terms of "organic" but if everything is supposed to be "balanced" how can the thing that keeps you alive not be taken into account in the core system?

How? By statistical performance, of course.

If you really want strict balance, play chess. The only place you can be ensured of 100% balance is in a deterministic system. If there's any randomness at all - in the equivalents of hit rolls, saves, and so on, then balance can only be considered in terms of average and/or potential performance.

And that's as it should be. "Balance" is not a matter of a single fight. A game is balanced when all characters, in general, have similar chances of being effective and interesting to play over the breadth of a varied campaign. And it isn't as if balance is a guarantee of effectiveness - it's just an equal chance.

 

[Blood Jester]

How? By statistical performance, of course.

If you really want strict balance, play chess. The only place you can be ensured of 100% balance is in a deterministic system. If there's any randomness at all - in the equivalents of hit rolls, saves, and so on, then balance can only be considered in terms of average and/or potential performance.

And that's as it should be. "Balance" is not a matter of a single fight. A game is balanced when all characters, in general, have similar chances of being effective and interesting to play over the breadth of a varied campaign. And it isn't as if balance is a guarantee of effectiveness - it's just an equal chance.

I see it as, you are supposed to have a random but equal chance in actions but core abilities/skills/powers are all balanced to a standard model so that everyone gets a fair shot at being a contributor.

So in a system where you have point-buy for stats to keep the totality of ability scores equal (even when individual scores are not necessarily), random HP rolls make little sense.

Build two fighters, identical stats, identical Feats/skills, even identical equipment.

At 6th level it is easily possible to have one of them be *twice* as capable as the other. (Being a front-line combatant, durability = capability.)

This is not maxing out the probability curve, and I have been in campaigns where the disparities were greater.

I have also seen the proverbial Wizard > Fighter for HP in play, and it is silly.

I like the idea of fixed HP (based on class).

And I have pondered a reduced range HP system for years (for those who *must* roll), and it sounds like Iron Heroes has done something like I considered (need to get that book...).

This gives variety, but not the same level of disparity. And helps keep classes in their given rolls (Fighters always have more HP than Wizards for ex.).

(Self-edited-out a lot of other junk that made this post too long).

 

[fiddlerjones]

I like the idea of variability. Not every 4th level fighter in chainmail is as resilient as every other 4th level fighter in chainmail. The variability is especially nice on the monster side of things, otherwise every owlbear is the same.

The 4th level fighters in chainmail that are more resilient are the ones with higher CON totals.
I am, however in favor of hit dice, but prefer the Iron Heroes manner in which dX becomes d4+(X-4).
However, hit dice for monsters are the greatest blessing a DM could ask for. That way players can't be like "Oh, orcs have 13 hit points. OK guys let's go to it."

 

[MerricB]

It's worth noting that in all the RPGA campaigns (Legacy, Mark of Heroes and Living Greyhawk), and probably more besides, hit points are not rolled.

(The best system is in MoH: d4=2hp, d6=4hp, d8=5 hp, d10=6 hp, d12=8 hp).

There is something of a de-emphasis on the hit dice due to the stronger effect of the constitution bonus in this edition (see Incarnate), but by no means is it unimportant.

Rolling hit points is probably still in the game for legacy reasons more than anything else. I prefer it as it is, but I quite see the points in your argument, Joe.

Cheers!

 

[shilsen]

Oh, that. Sorry to post in the wrong section, but the fastest fix is:

House Rule: Anytime you roll HP at level up, you take what you rolled, or 1/2 of the die. Whichever is higher. So you'll never have less than 'average' HP for your character, and (should) end up in the 3/4ths range. This has removed the terror of die rolling. When fighters roll 7, they get seven. When they roll 1, they get 5.

This is exactly the house rule I use in both of my games. It's worked very well so far. Randomization is all well and good, but I don't want the barbarian walking around with less hit pts than the wizard.

 

[delericho]

House Rule: Anytime you roll HP at level up, you take what you rolled, or 1/2 of the die. Whichever is higher. So you'll never have less than 'average' HP for your character, and (should) end up in the 3/4ths range. This has removed the terror of die rolling. When fighters roll 7, they get seven. When they roll 1, they get 5.

That's a fine house rule, and fixes the issue I have with random rolls. There are other house rules that similarly solve the problem.

Unfortunately, since they are house rules (and since many DMs I've encountered 'fix' the hit point rolls thing by eyeballing the roll and allowing a reroll or not based on whim), you don't always get to use the fix. Meaning that you can be stuck with that '1'.

I really really hate cheating in RPGs. I have no problem with missing in combat, and even being totally ineffective in combat due to a series of bad rolls. That's part of the fun of the game. But I will cheat on my hit point rolls, unless the DM states in advance that he's using a house rule to fix the system. I hate doing it, but in this instance I consider it a weakness in the system, rather than a weakness in my play.