D&D 5E Where Did Rebuke Undead Go?

[venkelos2016]

Maybe it's just a casualty of the simplification, but I noted that the Turn Undead ability doesn't reference alignment, or mention the word "rebuke". I thought maybe "oh, well they left it in the DMG, with all the other 'evil' options, like Death Domain, and Fallen Paladins", but I didn't see it there, either. Since most "good" clerics channel positive (healing) energy, turning makes sense, but most "evil" clerics seem more likely to channel negative (necrotic) energy, so rebuffing undead with negative energy, or buttering them up by enhancing them (clearly en enemy wouldn't do that ), it seems weird that half the mechanic is now gone. I suppose they could fall back on that old chestnut, "but we assume you are all playing "GOOD" characters, and such characters would only turn undead, anyway", but as we all know with any "old chestnut" reference, this can be silly, and wrong of them to assume.

Rambling done. So, did I just miss the obvious entry for it, or did they choose to get rid of it, for some unfathomable reason? Just curious, as I'm still learning the differences between 5E, and its relatives. I thought, for a moment, that maybe they sacrificed rebuke for Necromancer, to give them something, but nope. Minionmancer gets something, but it's only at the upper end of what many people will ever play, and somewhat limited, anyway. So, someone please help me find it if I missed Rebuke Undead in the PHB, DMG, or Monster Manual, or help me understand why clerics of Velsharoon are now demolishing the undead he makes? Thanks much.

 

[Remathilis]

Maybe it's just a casualty of the simplification, but I noted that the Turn Undead ability doesn't reference alignment, or mention the word "rebuke". I thought maybe "oh, well they left it in the DMG, with all the other 'evil' options, like Death Domain, and Fallen Paladins", but I didn't see it there, either. Since most "good" clerics channel positive (healing) energy, turning makes sense, but most "evil" clerics seem more likely to channel negative (necrotic) energy, so rebuffing undead with negative energy, or buttering them up by enhancing them (clearly en enemy wouldn't do that ), it seems weird that half the mechanic is now gone. I suppose they could fall back on that old chestnut, "but we assume you are all playing "GOOD" characters, and such characters would only turn undead, anyway", but as we all know with any "old chestnut" reference, this can be silly, and wrong of them to assume.

Rambling done. So, did I just miss the obvious entry for it, or did they choose to get rid of it, for some unfathomable reason? Just curious, as I'm still learning the differences between 5E, and its relatives. I thought, for a moment, that maybe they sacrificed rebuke for Necromancer, to give them something, but nope. Minionmancer gets something, but it's only at the upper end of what many people will ever play, and somewhat limited, anyway. So, someone please help me find it if I missed Rebuke Undead in the PHB, DMG, or Monster Manual, or help me understand why clerics of Velsharoon are now demolishing the undead he makes? Thanks much.

Oathbreaker paladin I think...

 

[Guest 6801718]

The Oathbreaker Paladin has Control Undead. That was the only one I could find that was close to what you're looking for.

 

[venkelos2016]

Yeah, I saw that one, too. Perhaps, if it were ever to come up, I'd allow such a cleric to substitute the CD: Control Undead of the Oathbreaker for their Destroy Undead, at 5th level. If a lvl 3 OB Paladin can have it, a lvl 5 cleric doesn't feel as if it would be broken. Otherwise, I often felt that the "cowing undead" aspect of Rebuke was weirdly the same as making them flee (Turning), so maybe that mechanic will stay the same, or they'll freeze, instead. It's all a little thing, I admit, but a strange absence, to me, as I was going through the book. I know that not every necromancer is an evil wizard, but it's often a trend, and that school of magic wasn't relegated to the DMG, along with the Death domain, so I thought maybe a few "evil options" (Assassin) were left for players to use, but not evil clerics option, and it seemed odd, in its absence. Thank you.

 

[feartheminotaur]

Necrotic or necromancy in relation to the undead is weird in 5e - example, Chilling Touch does necrotic damage, but actually has more harmful of an effect on undead (go figure...)

I always considered Turn and Rebuke the same thing - neither is actually controlling or buffing undead, but checking the undead with your divine power. I'd be inclined to remove the "must spend its turns trying to move as far away from as it can" and make it "cannot take any actions" since Turn presupposes the creature uses it's Action to Dash in addition its normal Move.

Notice that evil clerics, or death domain clerics, still have the "Destroy Undead" feature with the CR going up at 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th. That always seemed strange - I'm an evil cleric, I make the dead undead, not the other way around!

I've considered changing "Destroy" to "Infuse" and allow either the destruction as the standard power (via evil overload) OR something similar to the "Undead Thralls" feature of the necromancer (with the CR of creatures you can infuse based on the cleric CR progression).

 

[Illithidbix]

Necrotic or necromancy in relation to the undead is weird in 5e - example, Chilling Touch does necrotic damage, but actually has more harmful of an effect on undead (go figure...)
.

I more read it as Chill Touch has a *different* effect on Undead i(If you hit an undead target, it also has disadvantage on attack rolls against you until the end of your next turn.) BECAUSE all (or almost all) undead are resistant or immune to necrotic damage.

Does make it very good for the classes who can overcome said necrotic resistance.

 

[feartheminotaur]

Right. Or if the undead is not immune - e.g., skeletons. Sucks to be a skeleton I guess.

 

[venkelos2016]

Yeah, I've sort of noticed that "Undead" got a lot simpler now, and that undead creatures lost a lot of their resilience, as a creature type, with now taking cold damage (one or two seem resistant, but it's hard to tell if it's because they are undead, or because liches, and wraiths, specifically are, where wights, and others are not), some not even being immune to necrotic damage, and not seeming to be protected from transmutations, blah, blah, blah, all the laundry list that was the Undead type in editions past (this might've actually happened in 4E, but I vehemently ignored that edition, at every possibility, so this aspect of undead is new to me, at least ) Even positive and negative energy seem different, with cure saying no effect on undead, and inflict not saying anything, but many undead not having necrotic immunity, or absorption. Oh well, I can live with "simpler to deal with more varied enemies", so long as I figure it out, first.

 

[hoshisabi]

The "mindless undead" lost all their mental protections. We just noticed that the other day, the bard was viciously mocking skeletons for being all bony. He could have made them laugh with Tasha's or charmed them too. It's a new world!

 

[Mouseferatu]

Heck, you can get some skeletons drunk. Just don't ruin it by having a unicorn in the party.