Where does making an effective character end and munchkinism begin?

[MerakSpielman]

What I just said.

How can you tell when a player is making a cool and effective character as opposed to when he's becoming a munchkin?

Where is the line in the sand?

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the entire party is roughly exploiting the rules to the same extent - i.e., our hypothetical power-gamer/munchkin is not drastically exceeding the power level of the rest of the party.

 

[Belen]

10) When a paladin-monk's saves are equal to her AC...at second level.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

First of all, I'm very wary of 'lines in the sand' because you can nearly always move them a millimetre at a time without anyone noticing...

I think of myself in the first group there, someone who makes effective characters. Is taking spell focus, greater spell focus, spell penetration and greater spell penetration being a munchkin when the character is designed as a boom mage? No, it's good sense. Characters need all the help they can get against some creatures. But is taking the Archmage PrC just for the spell power and refusing to role play the way other wizards react to him munchinning? that's more where it lies.

Taking abilities, feats and items that complement a backstory and add to the fun is not being a munchkin.

Taking abilities, feats and items that give the DM a headache and cause you to out shine everyone else in your group is being a munchkin.

I also hereby recommend that everyone in this thread remembers that posts should nearly always have that little "IMHO" at the end of them...

 

[Voadam]

When there is no in game justification for their choices or they act completely contrary to their character background justifications.

That said, I think d20 munchinining can be fine if everybody is in the mood for that kind of game.

 

[Mark]

9) When you hear a player ask the price of a Vorpal, Mercurial Spiked Chain of Great Cleaving

 

[Arnwyn]

Exactly as Voadam says - that's my personal "line drawn in the sand".

He said it exactly how I would have said it (if I were more articulate than I am now).

 

[Murrdox]

It becomes munchkin when the only thing you care about on your character is how fast he can kill something. When he's not a character anymore - he's just his BAB and the sum of his equipment.

 

[diaglo]

when the player would rather have his character die than lose a point of stat, level, etc...or items.

like Murrdox said. the player stops thinking of him as a character and more of a stat block or place to store his powerups and videoequips.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

9) When you hear a player ask the price of a Vorpal, Mercurial Spiked Chain of Great Cleaving

What plus are we talking here? Is a +1 Vorpal, Mercurial Spiked Chain of Great Cleaving not munchkin, but a +5 Vorpal, Mercurial Spiked Chain of Great Cleaving is? We want lines in the sand, man!

Pardon the hijack.

 

[EricNoah]

Careful -- someone might think you're being a snob!

Seriously, though, it's only a problem if the players or DM aren't having fun. If everyone is "exploiting the rules equally" then the DM's job is to try to match the character's abilies with the challenges s/he devises.