Where Has All the Magic Gone?

[Toben the Many]

The OP illustrates why I do my magic items the way I do now.

For a long time, now, instead of giving my PCs a lot of magic stuff with the "Christmas Tree effect" I've given them just a few magic items. However, each item I've given them has been multi-use item, that does a variety of things. Some of those things are directly useful (like damage and AC), but some of the effects are more "random".

It's worked out for me for a while, now.

 

[EroGaki]

The OP illustrates why I do my magic items the way I do now.

For a long time, now, instead of giving my PCs a lot of magic stuff with the "Christmas Tree effect" I've given them just a few magic items. However, each item I've given them has been multi-use item, that does a variety of things. Some of those things are directly useful (like damage and AC), but some of the effects are more "random".

It's worked out for me for a while, now.

Can I join your game?

 

[billd91]

I see Raven et al are still in disbelief with Q's thread even though he answered those "well you're not supposed to find all those treasure".

As for the belief that in 1e that one can "plan" for encounters beforehand, how does that jive with the random encounter table?

I don't think anyone's saying you can absolutely plan for every contingency. But how do you plan for random encounters? You figure out how to reduce your vulnerability - you keep moving and don't spend lots of time doing meticulous searching and fiddling around. So you stock up on magical healing you can use on the fly and don't "Greyhawk" rooms but spend short amounts of time searching most likely locations efficiently.
You can't completely eliminate the risk, but you reduce it through appropriate planning.

 

[Lanefan]

The balancing guidelines in the DMG is to give the DM an idea of how dangerous an encounter is for the PC party. It doesn't restrict you to only using risk-free encounters. The DM can make harder or easier encounters as he sees fit. But the guidelines let the DM know what he's sending so that he doesn't make a crazy hard encounter when he wants a easy one, or vice versa.

The problem I keep encountering is that my players invariably find ways of turning the crazy hard encounters into well-won victories, and the easy ones into near-TPKs. I can balance till I'm blue in the face, but I can't account for their dice, or their thought processes.

In most modules, the wandering monster encounters usually average as lower-risk than the planned ones. That said, I don't tend to use wandering monsters once a given dungeon has been cleaned out because...well, it's been cleaned out. The only place something can wander from is in through the front door; and if the place has a dangerous reputation most things will avoid it anyway. In fact, the continued appearance of wandering monsters in a cleaned-out dungeon is a pretty good indication the place *hasn't* been cleaned out, and they've missed something.

Lanefan

 

[Ahglock]

I am disappointed in how for me the magic left the game. I also think a lot of the things that gave it the magical feeling helped balance the game. And 3e became a spell caster paradise because of it.

Fireballs not filling a volume made the fireball spell absurdly reliable, same with bouncing lightning bolts. The difficulty in learning spells, making magic items in earlier editions was a huge balancing factor. I loved the chapters in the complete wizards handbook on outfittig your place with a library in order to research spells. When you just learn 2 every level, and the idea of spell research falls away, it stopped feeling like a magical magic system and more like a game mechanic. And it had the side effect of giving spellcasters a power up whcih totally wa snot needed, especially when they are on the same XP scale.

Spell wise I remember one of my largest disappointments in 3e was because how clone worked in 3e, a cool story arc in the forgotten realms could not happen. Near the end of 2e, the spell caster(whose name I can't ever remember) who invented the stasis clone spell had an incident.

Back in the day clone created a clone, stasis clone was kind of like the 3e clone spell in that it was a you in stasis until your death, but the difference was, your soul did not go to the clone, it was just a clone of you with your memories and level -1. So the story arc was all his clones in stasis became active at once and he had hundreds.

Originally if a clone was active on the same plane as the original, both parties felt an urge to murder each other. So hundreds of high level mage clones were running aorund the world, grabbing up stashes of magic and slaughtering each other in the streets.

Frickin awesoem to me. In 3e the clone is just a lump of flesh waiting for your sould to enter it. It just took the cool out of it for me when it became a raise dead variant with a trigger.

Side note on expected magic items in earlier editions. As pointed out earlier you lost a ton of items due to area of effect spells and effects. Fail a save and then you have to amke a save for every item on your person. Cloaks don't sruvive dragon breath well. Also the hate in my heart for mordinkins disjunction is legendary.(okay I love it, but dang items went down the tubes when that spell came into play) So even if you magically got every item in a dungeon instead of the 30-50% I am used to, you would not be stocked up for long.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Wow. I don't know. Maybe I'm just not *getting* what some of you are so ferociously arguing about. Balance? Don't balance? It's the DM's responsibility to balance? It's *not* the DM's responsibility to balance encounters?

Gee whiz. Honestly, come on now.

If you have a party that is suitable in general to fight trolls, well, if 3 trolls would be too easy, the DM shouldn't ambush them with 10 trolls. The DM in such a case should think perhaps 5 or 6 or even 7 trolls might be just the right degree of challenge, without being overwhelming and giving the PC's a dismal--and forgone defeat.

It *is* the responsibility of the DM--in my view, anyways--to design or adjuducate randomly rolled encounters--to be reasonably balanced--in that the party has a decent chance of emerging victorious, but also has a reasonable chance of experiencing defeat. Last time I checked...that's the goodness of providing a *Challenge*. Not a cakewalk, and not a damn exercise in smearing the party's characters all over the dungeon floor faster than they can blink. Isn't *ENCOUNTER DESIGN* something learned in basic Dungeon Mastering Campaigns 101 anymore?

As for magic items. Well, honestly, yes, *textwise* 1E wins hands down. That's simply due to the great Gary Gygax. It's been a long time since then, so the flavour text in new editions of D&D magic items are *bleh* Yeah, I get that. I agree. Thus, you have to make up your own.

Jack7, my friend, when it comes to making new powers and stuff, you just gotta get your hands dirty and make up your own interesting, mysterious magic items that will enthrall and exhilirate your players. When using published items, feel free to add, subtract, and tweak various powers and properties, adding new effects, drawbacks, limitations, whatever my friend. YOU must make the magic items interesting. We can all pretty much forget about WOTC making most magic items terribly interesting.

Why, you might ask? Because it's not the same writers. A different generation of writers. Not everyone is a good writer, or you have good writers, but who have different styles and specialties, or talents, in what they write, and *how* they write. Matching the wonderful Gary Gygax is a asking to fill some very large shoes indeed!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Obryn]

I see Raven et al are still in disbelief with Q's thread even though he answered those "well you're not supposed to find all those treasure".

As for the belief that in 1e that one can "plan" for encounters beforehand, how does that jive with the random encounter table?

Yep, as an aside to folks reading this thread who may not know the background...

RC and others very certain that they played AD&D right back in the day (and still do so now). They do not remember finding much treasure, and as a result, character advancement was rather slow.

Quasqueton and others are also very certain they played D&D right back in the day (and still do so now). They remember finding quite a bit more treasure, and as a result, advancement was much faster, and in fact close to or (at low levels) exceeding 3.5's.

Q wrote a very well-researched thread about this, and since it doesn't match some peoples' experiences (but does match others'), it's controversial, and this argument has spread outwards to every single thread that so much as mentions either advancement or treasure in 1e.

-O

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Here is one item used in my campaigns.

"Darthan" (The Hand of Judgement)
Weapon Type: Light Mace Damage: 1d6

"Darthan" was crafted over 12 centuries ago by the holy priest Halbar, a high priest of the god Ullric. The mace is just over 3' in length, and crafted of black steel, and inlaid with mithril. The head of the mace is a finely detailed wolf-head, with life-like pale grey eyes. The pommel of the mace is crafted into the likeness of two hands, gripping each other to form a larger "fist" with the fingers interlaced. "Darthan" is very intelligent, and very perceptive and wise, though not especially charming. The mace is valiant, devout, and zealous, being devoted to protecting followers of Ullric, and serving the interests of the fierce god of war, winter and wolves. The mace speaks on occasion to it's wielder to offer encouragement, as well as advice and spiritual counsel. The mace is a fierce opponent of all evil aberrations and monstrous humanoids.

(1) +5
(2) Holy (Inflict +2d6 Holy damage against all evil creaatures)
(3) Ghost Touch (Allows normal attack against all incorporeal undead)
(4) Bane against Monstrous Humanoids (+7 weapon; inflicts bonus +2d6 damage against such opponents.)
(5) Bane against Aberrations. (+7 weapon; inflicts bonus +2d6 damage against such opponents.)

Intelligent Item

Possesses Speech and Telepathy; 120' Darkvision, blindsense and hearing.
Read Languages, Read Magic
Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 10
Item Ego: 35
Languages Known: Common, Elvish, Dwarvish, Celestial
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Lesser Powers (4)
Item has 10 ranks in Sense Motive
Item has 10 ranks in Diplomacy
Item has 10 ranks in Knowledge (History)
Item has 10 ranks in Knowledge (Nature)

Greater Powers (3)

Item can use Fear against foes, 3/day
Item can use Haste on wielder, 3/day
Item can cast Daylight, 3/day

Special Purpose: Defend the servants and interests of the god, Ullric.
Dedicated Power: Item provides the wielder with +2 bonus to attacks, saves, and checks.

 

[Delta]

It *is* the responsibility of the DM--in my view, anyways--to design or adjuducate randomly rolled encounters--to be reasonably balanced--in that the party has a decent chance of emerging victorious, but also has a reasonable chance of experiencing defeat.

But that's purely a matter of taste. Even the 3E DMG has a section called "Tailored vs. Status Quo" adventure design, that supports either philosophy.


One thing that I do notice between editions is that if you use the 3E random encounter tables, they always result in an encounter exactly equal to the given level of the dungeon. 1E encounter tables didn't do that, so you had harder & easier encounters automatically built into the tables.

 

[SHARK]

But that's purely a matter of taste. Even the 3E DMG has a section called "Tailored vs. Status Quo" adventure design, that supports either philosophy.


One thing that I do notice between editions is that if you use the 3E random encounter tables, they always result in an encounter exactly equal to the given level of the dungeon. 1E encounter tables didn't do that, so you had harder & easier encounters automatically built into the tables.

Greetings!

Yep! That's right, Delta. That's why a good DM that *doesn't* want every encounter perfectly *balanced* can and should--make up some custom encounter tables that provide a range of possibilities of encountering weaker, equal, or stronger encounters.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK