Where Has All the Magic Gone?

[Raven Crowking]

There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.

Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules.

It was inherent in earlier versions of the game that what magic items were possible were intentionally hidden from the players (hence the admonition in the 1e DMG that players not pry). Not only that, but it was easy to create new magic items in a system whereby the means that characters in the world make said items need not be known. Thus the plethora of items found in the Encyclopedia Magica which are just plain wacky, as opposed to those found in WotC-D&D, which are all-too-often just plain bleh.

Inarguably, the +X items of OD&D began the idea of items that add to the characters in a numerical way. I would say that this is still an important function of magic items within the game. However, the really fun items are often a heck of a lot more quirky. And quirky doesn't mean the ability to cast one particular spell (freeing up a spell slot) ala the Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

If experiencing magic and mystery are among the goals of players in a D&D game, I note that placing the magic items in the PHB is among the most boneheaded moves possible. The addition of rituals (in 3.5 UA, and later in 4e) is, OTOH, a good idea, because a ritual allows any type of magical effect to occur, opening the door to mystery once more.

IMHO, at least.


RC

 

[Mallus]

There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known.

This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.

Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.

Another approach is to accept that most magic won't be very 'magical'; it's just a tool. This is the stuff found in the rule books. Then, in additional, add some unique magic, whose rules are only known to the DM/GM, and have to be discovered through use by the players. These items/spell/entities/etc. will add back some of the mystery, the joy of discovery and learning.

 

[Mournblade94]

It's also full of dull-and-functional wahoo like Magic Missile and a longsword +1

Which really is supposed to be full of wonder. An adventurer is a rarity in the D&D world not the norm. Hence why you can still have a plague problem like Seven Days to the Grave.

In any case, with all of the genres out there, fantasy logically would be the one for those interested in Wonder and Mystery. Otherwise just play the modern genre.

Not exactly.

And I would disagree.

Again then why play in the fantasy genre?

Has it really gotten to the point that Dungeons and Dragons is just like any old game?

This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.


Another approach is to accept that most magic won't be very 'magical'; it's just a tool. This is the stuff found in the rule books. Then, in additional, add some unique magic, whose rules are only known to the DM/GM, and have to be discovered through use by the players. These items/spell/entities/etc. will add back some of the mystery, the joy of discovery and learning.

It would appear that you actually agree with me here.

 

[Jack7]

Personally I like to both take old items and then alter them so that the user can't know exactly what they do ahead of time, why, or how, and to create New Items.

I also like to do the same for monsters, and for various other things.

Right now I am experimenting with a way for characters to express magic in individual and unique ways, according to their nature, so that they can do away with spells and preformulated magic. Of course that means that monsters and NPCs will have the same ability.

 

[Mallus]

It was inherent in earlier versions of the game that what magic items were possible were intentionally hidden from the players (hence the admonition in the 1e DMG that players not pry).

You know, I don't know a single person who heeded that particular admonition .

I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself. And not tell anyone. Or write them down. And possibly not think about them too hard, in case one of your players scored highly on the Rhine Sensitivity Test...

 

[Raven Crowking]

You know, I don't know a single person who heeded that particular admonition .

Really? Do you mean you don't know anyone in person? Or are you attempting to say that no one you know on EN World heeded that particular admonition?

I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself. And not tell anyone. Or write them down. And possibly not think about them too hard, in case one of your players scored highly on the Rhine Sensitivity Test...

Your experience with ESP is very different than mine.

I had (and have) no difficulty with making up, writing down, and thinking about magic items. Perhaps my players all rolled poorly to see if they had psionics (1e style ).

RCFG has allowed me to use the Encyclopedia Magica again, and that book contains enough ideas that I've never run into a player able (or willing) to memorize them all.


RC

 

[gizmo33]

I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself.

This strategy goes back as far, at least, as Eldritch Wizardry and it's approach to artifacts. The later 1e DMG used the basically the same concept - and that was that the powers of the artifacts would be chosen from a menu of options by individual DMs so that players that owned the rule books wouldn't know them.

 

[Mallus]

Which really is supposed to be full of wonder.

To whom? Magic missiles and longswords +1 haven't been full of wonder to D&D players since the 1970's.

An adventurer is a rarity in the D&D world not the norm.

But an adventurer is not a rarity among D&D players. In fact, every player has at least one !

In any case, with all of the genres out there, fantasy logically would be the one for those interested in Wonder and Mystery. Otherwise just play the modern genre.

You seem to be under the impression that all fantasy aficionados are interested in 'Wonder and Mystery' (however you're defining them). I'm betting that isn't true.

Again then why play in the fantasy genre?

I'm betting there are any number of reasons (hint: we're really talking about taste, a place where logic --rightly-- fears to tread). Perhaps the player wants to play a butt-kicking elf armed with no better than late medieval weapons?

Has it really gotten to the point that Dungeons and Dragons is just like any old game?

It's like any old game where you pretend to be an elf, kill things, and take their stuff.

(I actually believe there are a great many things you can do with RPG's, but I'm suspicious of any attempt to mythologize the game)

It would appear that you actually agree with me here.

Good. Agreement is nice.

 

[Mallus]

Really? Do you mean you don't know anyone in person?

In person (sorry, should have been clearer about that).

Perhaps my players all rolled poorly to see if they had psionics (1e style ).

Actually, the only confirmed psionic ability my players had was the one that gave the target a whopping headache (Psychic Crush, I believe... )

RCFG has allowed me to use the Encyclopedia Magica again, and that book contains enough ideas that I've never run into a player able (or willing) to memorize them all.

How the pet project coming along these days?

 

[gizmo33]

This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.

I think this is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Fantasy fiction has sometimes experimented with quasi-scientific systems for magic that attempts to quantify it in a way that would seem like an RPG. Some of these efforts predate RPGs, and in fact (obviously) contributed to the way the magic systems work. The two big examples being Vancian Magic, and the component system of deCamp's Compleat Enchanter stories. Both of these predate DnD. Perhaps not-so-coincidentally, both sets of stories feature magic-users as protagonists of the story, and so I think it's nice to have a "system" of sorts so that the reader can have a sense of the protagonists limitations.

The concept of magic being inherently unknowable and unquantifiable IMO is not a concept that I've seen outside of this thread and similar speculations by people talking about RPGs.