Where is 4E incomplete? Forked: Does 4E have staying power?

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The old disclaimer: as a 4E DM who likes fourth edition I think being a HERO at level 1 destroy the coolness of being low level, granted, at previous edition 1st level was a killer.
 



This I find interesting. It's basically saying that it's not that the game is actually incomplete, it's that the game is different then it was.

That's a given, really, but there is no doubt that material is deliberately spread out over several series of books. It is unavoidable to some extend with the space that each class now takes up and the idea that all material that players would want should show up in the Player's Handbook. But it is surely for marketing reasons as well.
I don't really consider 4E incomplete per se, that seems the wrong word to use. I guess I'd call it "partitioned" or "wanting", but that doesn't change the facts that it happened.
 

Didn't we have this argument last week?

And the week before?

And the week before that?
Didn't we also have a post about that fact last week, the week before, and the week before that too? ;)

The old disclaimer: as a 4E DM who likes fourth edition I think being a HERO at level 1 destroy the coolness of being low level, granted, at previous edition 1st level was a killer.

As a 4E DM, I have seen too many player characters killed or nearly killed by level 1 and 2 kobolds and goblins to think of first level characters as HEROES.
 

If you didn't need a book in the past even though the makers of the book considered it core, how is printing the fact that the makers of the book consider it core on the cover going to now cause you to need it?

Who mentioned needing anything? I don't consider the contents of any book as needed just because it says core on the cover. The question was one of comparable completeness/value of intitial 3 book core releases of 4E vs other editions. For the sake of this debate I am more than happy to define "core" as initial PHB,DMG, and MM.
 

As a 4E DM, I have seen too many player characters killed or nearly killed by level 1 and 2 kobolds and goblins to think of first level characters as HEROES.

Which begs an interesting simulationist question...

According to all versions of D&D, a 1st level PC is inherently better than a commoner NPC. (Be it an NPC class like commoner or classic 0-level characters). They have better hp, saves, ability scores, and abilities (extra feats, spellcasting, trapfinding, rage, divine power, or ki-training).

Yet an orc (CR 1/2, 1 HD) can down one in a good hit. The same way Joe-the-Pigfarmer would.

So the question becomes; how'd those PCs get so much better than 99% of the population, yet still don't match a common orc? And if PCs are supposed to be "special" (IE not all bars are run by 6th level fighters, nor all temples staffed by 9th level clerics) what keeps a dozen or so orcs from going through and literraly obliterating nearly every living human in a kingdom? If common orcs are equal to or better than humanities "hero" population, what does that say about humanity?

Just thinking. Continue to bash 4e.
 

Which begs an interesting simulationist question...

According to all versions of D&D, a 1st level PC is inherently better than a commoner NPC. (Be it an NPC class like commoner or classic 0-level characters). They have better hp, saves, ability scores, and abilities (extra feats, spellcasting, trapfinding, rage, divine power, or ki-training).

Yet an orc (CR 1/2, 1 HD) can down one in a good hit. The same way Joe-the-Pigfarmer would.

So the question becomes; how'd those PCs get so much better than 99% of the population, yet still don't match a common orc? And if PCs are supposed to be "special" (IE not all bars are run by 6th level fighters, nor all temples staffed by 9th level clerics) what keeps a dozen or so orcs from going through and literraly obliterating nearly every living human in a kingdom? If common orcs are equal to or better than humanities "hero" population, what does that say about humanity?

Just thinking. Continue to bash 4e.
I am not bashing 4E, just pointing out that first level characters are not as powerful as some people seem to think them to be. If you think that I am bashing 4E, you are wrong.

Most common orcs are minions, just like most other commoners. With that 1 hit point, a single 'hit' will take either one down.
 
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Didn't we have this argument last week?

And the week before?

And the week before that?

-O

This is the post that never ends... it just goes on and on my friend... somebody started posting it not knowing what itn was, and they'll continue posting it forever just because this is the post that never ends it just goes on and on my friend...

ExploderWizard said:
Who mentioned needing anything? I don't consider the contents of any book as needed just because it says core on the cover. The question was one of comparable completeness/value of intitial 3 book core releases of 4E vs other editions. For the sake of this debate I am more than happy to define "core" as initial PHB,DMG, and MM.

What I meant was: If the philosophy of the company in question was that all those books were already core, then what does a new initiative to print that fact on the front cover actualy do? You (or anyone) needs these "core" books just as much as they've ever needed the other versions of those same "core" books.

If you answer was I didn't "need" them to complete the game in the past, your answer should still be the same.

Printing core on the cover doesn't change anything aside from making it more apparent that WoTC thinks these suppliments will add value to your game.

Knight Otu said:
I don't really consider 4E incomplete per se, that seems the wrong word to use. I guess I'd call it "partitioned" or "wanting", but that doesn't change the facts that it happened.

Thats what I meant really. "Incomplete" is an innapropriate word to use.

You don't need a druid for other elements of the game to function. All elements the game needs to function are contained in the pages you buy.

You might WANT a druid class, but the game does not require one in order to function.

I might WANT a hot topless girl in the back seat of my car at all times ready to give me a neck massage.... But my car still performs all the functions it's designed to perform without said girl.
 
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