Didn't we have this argument last week?
And the week before?
And the week before that?
Didn't we have this argument last week?
And the week before?
And the week before that?
-O
This I find interesting. It's basically saying that it's not that the game is actually incomplete, it's that the game is different then it was.
Didn't we also have a post about that fact last week, the week before, and the week before that too?Didn't we have this argument last week?
And the week before?
And the week before that?
The old disclaimer: as a 4E DM who likes fourth edition I think being a HERO at level 1 destroy the coolness of being low level, granted, at previous edition 1st level was a killer.
If you didn't need a book in the past even though the makers of the book considered it core, how is printing the fact that the makers of the book consider it core on the cover going to now cause you to need it?
As a 4E DM, I have seen too many player characters killed or nearly killed by level 1 and 2 kobolds and goblins to think of first level characters as HEROES.
I am not bashing 4E, just pointing out that first level characters are not as powerful as some people seem to think them to be. If you think that I am bashing 4E, you are wrong.Which begs an interesting simulationist question...
According to all versions of D&D, a 1st level PC is inherently better than a commoner NPC. (Be it an NPC class like commoner or classic 0-level characters). They have better hp, saves, ability scores, and abilities (extra feats, spellcasting, trapfinding, rage, divine power, or ki-training).
Yet an orc (CR 1/2, 1 HD) can down one in a good hit. The same way Joe-the-Pigfarmer would.
So the question becomes; how'd those PCs get so much better than 99% of the population, yet still don't match a common orc? And if PCs are supposed to be "special" (IE not all bars are run by 6th level fighters, nor all temples staffed by 9th level clerics) what keeps a dozen or so orcs from going through and literraly obliterating nearly every living human in a kingdom? If common orcs are equal to or better than humanities "hero" population, what does that say about humanity?
Just thinking. Continue to bash 4e.
Didn't we have this argument last week?
And the week before?
And the week before that?
-O
ExploderWizard said:Who mentioned needing anything? I don't consider the contents of any book as needed just because it says core on the cover. The question was one of comparable completeness/value of intitial 3 book core releases of 4E vs other editions. For the sake of this debate I am more than happy to define "core" as initial PHB,DMG, and MM.
Knight Otu said:I don't really consider 4E incomplete per se, that seems the wrong word to use. I guess I'd call it "partitioned" or "wanting", but that doesn't change the facts that it happened.