Where the Forgotten Realms lost me...

[Henry]

I do have to wonder one thing: How much of that 1E Grey Box arose from play, but instead arose from Ed's copious boxes and boxes and BOXES of notes that he wrote for his enjoyment, and Jeff Grub et.al. later interpreted for DM consumption.

In other words, what FR tends to lose a little bit of, with every new edition, is the touch of Ed Greenwood. Even when they make sure that with every new edition he keeps a hand in it, I have to wonder how much of him is really in it. Maybe someone who haunts Candlekeep might know if he's spoken on his level of input in 4e's Realms material very much.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

With 4e, you've lost practically all of the old "I created this and my players experienced it" feeling, and I think it's a sad loss.

I agree.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

The Realms lost me several years ago for a couple of reasons. The last straw was that for the previous ten years just about every game I'd played or run was set in the Realms. I was tired of it and wanted new horizons. But the real seed of dissatisfaction with the Realms was planted LONG before when they detailed Sembia - an area that had SPECIFICALLY been set aside in the first box as strictly the playground of the individual DM. It wasn't even an area that seemed interesting enough to BOTHER detailing. I much rather enjoyed Waterdeep and Cormyr.

As time went on after that they just kept crapping out sourcebooks for every friggin' square mile from pole to pole and sea to shining sea. It came to feel as if it was a setting that was no longer INTENDED for any DM to pollute with his own ideas. "Oh, hey! We haven't done a sourcebook for that little nation of Podunk with a population of 1,347. People will be wanting THAT one. We'd better get right on that before someone actually does their own thing with it and then it won't fit with anything else WE publish!" Sort of went hand in hand with how I felt the game itself was being handled - thou shalt not tolerate deviation from the text.

 

[Ranger REG]

I liked FR because it was well detailed in what it did, and it made it a lot easier for me as a DM to not have to develop stuff.

But not too detailed. Didn't like it when they fully statted novel characters as well as characters from Ed Greenwood's own game. I prefer a little latitude as to how I want to present them in my own game, IF I want to introduce them to my players' PC.

I still like the fact they kept Sembia mostly untouched.

 

[SSquirrel]

I do have to wonder one thing: How much of that 1E Grey Box arose from play, but instead arose from Ed's copious boxes and boxes and BOXES of notes that he wrote for his enjoyment, and Jeff Grub et.al. later interpreted for DM consumption.

In other words, what FR tends to lose a little bit of, with every new edition, is the touch of Ed Greenwood. Even when they make sure that with every new edition he keeps a hand in it, I have to wonder how much of him is really in it. Maybe someone who haunts Candlekeep might know if he's spoken on his level of input in 4e's Realms material very much.

Does that include 4th Ed since we have this blurb from the Design & Development article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a :

"BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl."

 

[Henry]

Does that include 4th Ed since we have this blurb from the Design & Development article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a :

I remember the quote, and my question is more along the lines of "how much was 'conceived' by him versus how much was actually fleshed out by him?"

In the grey box's case, it seems that 90% of that thing was codified notes from him. In later editions, I think Merric's point is that less and less of it seems to be from the same person who wrote that first one, and less from him running players through it, and more of being written for more general adenture hooks and overarching plot direction in the manner of the Time of Troubles, or The Return of the City of Shade.

I can see the difference that Merric's discussing.

 

[WayneLigon]

The Forgotten Realms as presented in the Grey Box is the personal campaign setting of Ed Greenwood.

I think they did a good job of making you believe that in the grey-box days, but as we've found out later there are a number of significant changes that were made to Greenwood's personal campaign before we ever saw it; someday I'd love to see the original maps and details of their game and the process that went on to convert it to what we eventually saw. Just like Gygax's original campaign was not the Greyhawk we saw, but something much more like what we saw in Lejendary Journeys with the faux-Earth. I did love reading his articles in The Dragon in the early days.

I lost interest in the Realms with the Time of Troubles. It was such a terrible idea on so many levels that I can't really detail all of them, and all for something as simple as an edition change. It's almost childish to me to expect there to be this massive explanation of such a thing; it just smacked of being explotive.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

The "this clearly was someones personal campaignsetting" feel was, for me, always the worst aspect of the FR. When an NPC sent you the "retired PC" vibe, i always got a bad taste in my mouth. So, good riddance to that feeling.

 

[Adlon]

My suspicions are :

1e:
TSR: Ed, we want your stuff, it's great.
EG: Ok, guys, here is the FRCS.
TSR: ok, we'll check it out, edit it, and gtg. Thanks Ed.

2e:
TSR: Ed, we want to make a new edition. Some of this stuff has to change. Some has to go. We need something drastic, dunno, how about tossing the gods down from the heavens, and generally having total chaos for a short time....
Ed: WTF, well, ok... lemme see what I can do.....
Ed: Ok, guys, here it is. I did X here, and Y there, and all is gtg
TSR: Great Ed, we'll make it purdy, and sell it. Thanks.

3e:
Wiz: Ed, time for another edition.
Ed: OMG not again........PLEASE guys..... we can do ...
Wiz: Nah, we gotta make money. The big guys sez we gotta or we're in deep kimshee. THIS is the timeline of products, and this is generally how we want our products to go. It's up to You to make it all work, and oh, here's some MORE people to tell you what to do.
Ed: sigh.....can I ....
Wiz: only if we say so... but Ed, you're the man..... !!!
Ed: So, whaddya want now?
Wiz: We want stuff !! We had gods tossed about, cant have that again....how about strife in the most popular organization in the realms, the return of Netheril, oh, we liked Bane......yeah...but, do your thing Ed....
Ed: sigh....Ok, guys, here you go......
Wiz: Great Ed, now our editors and other FRCS experts will make this stuff into sellable (our way ) product.

4e:
Wiz: Ed, yep, you guessed it... 4EEeeeeeee !!!!!
Ed: /slitwrist
Wiz: ? Ed, Hasbro sez we gotta make money......
Ed: nevermind... whatcha need now....
Wiz: Well, with 4e, everything changes. We want everything upside down, entire continents wiped, and replaced, alot of people dead, oh, axe some gods along the way. We don't want a God of Magic anymore, make sure SHE's outta here. Oh, we HATE the Harpers too.....
We want everything to work thus, and we want to be able to say 'Penned by Ed Greenwood' on every FR product. You write it, we'll make it fit, as we now have people who are better at FRCS than you are......
Ed: Isn't it too soon?
Wiz: well, probably, but, we are a business after all. As we have our finger on the pulse of the industry, and base our changes on customer feedback almost exclusively, all is good. If we build it, they will come.
Ed: !!!
Wiz: !
Ed: sigh... ok, here ya go......
Wiz: Ed, you're a real trooper, and a team player. Now, we'll take all this and make it OUR way, so WE can sell this stuff, after all, we have people who win more FRCS than you do.
Ed: yah.... checks in yet?

---------------

It is what it is. Ed is a real person, who like most of us needs a real job, to put real meat and potatoes on his real family's plates. He has a good job, and IS a game/world designer, and is doing what he loves.

To me, one particular person on the FRCS team truly doesn't belong, but that's a rant and wont go here. Unfortunately, this individual has ALOT to do with the finished product, and at a glance I can tell he has NO clue about FRCS and what is has been. 1-2 others on this team are also suspect, but, my point is that Ed has alot less say, and it dwindles with every 'expansion pak' we get. It's obvious.....in the writing, and feel of the CS.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

If Ed Greenwood were still writing Pages from the Mages and his other columns for Dragon Magazine - the paper version - and the Forgotten Realms was still a wide-open, mysterious and barely detailed place (i.e. the first boxed set or earlier), then I think I'd still love it. Guess that means I'm slipping further into grognardom.