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4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
When the answer is oh do that free from you dont need options ... call it what you want
That's not what we were discussing.

We were discussing how people played, which I thought was interesting.

Some people were articulating that 4e was very freeform, which I didn't think was necessarily the case, but if it works for them ... great! I'd like to here more about why they thought that.

OTOH, you seem to be ... I don't know. As I have only been saying that 5e appears to allow more freeform style of play, you seem to now be ANGRILY agreeing with me ... so, good?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This is counter-intuitive: if Magic was freeform as well, it would be unlimited in power and scope.
Free-form = power in D&D.
NO it isnt free-form is limited to things of extremity and awesome less than magic.

"Magic is more powerful" - The number of times I have heard DMs cite that is extraordinary since magic is the defintition of extreme.

Why else would it be limited by resource management
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
As I have only been saying that 5e appears to allow more freeform style of play, you seem to now be ANGRILY agreeing with me ... so, good?
I am saying it deprives martial types of anything but that freeform... but mages they get the same skill free form but also well defined other options.
 

Parmandur

Legend
NO it isnt free-form is limited to things of extremity and awesome less than magic.

"Magic is more powerful" - The number of times I have heard DMs cite that is extraordinary since magic is the defintition of extreme.

Why else would it be limited by resource management
It is limited to make it limited: if magic was free-form it would be more powerful. If Martial stuff was limited, it would be more limited. As it is free-form, it is more powerful than it would otherwise be.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I am saying it deprives martial types of anything but that freeform... but mages they get the same skill free form but also well defined other options.
Martials have extremely well defined options for killing things quite dead with no resource management, in addition to free-form skill usage.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I am saying it deprives martial types of anything but that freeform... but mages they get the same skill free form but also well defined other options.
But again, this has nothing to do with the overall style of play.

By definition, enumeration and codification is anathema freeform style of play.

Other than the tired refrain about martial characters, I don't know what your point is.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Ever had a DM ask for a series of swimming rolls guaranteeing a drowning process because you know he didnt know how to swim? I have nor is eyeballing the effect of multiple die rolls natural for most people.

This is what I think of when I think of DM improvising free from.

And in D&D land I think of "Just say NO" mentality being disguised because only magic can really do the extraordinary.
This, I think, bears some truth. (As well as a Dunning-Kruger effect going the other way.) To which I would say two things:

a) It ends up not mattering as much as we think, because playgroups tend to share mentalities/worldviews. (That is, if everyone at the table thinks it should take 5 rolls instead of 1 or 2...its irrelevant to their enjoyment.)* Additionally, it lets different tables play to different motifs ("superheroic" vs "grim", etc.)
a1) I would also recommend D&D drop the "auto-success" aspect of magic/spellcasting. This, I think, is the real mechanical source of the disparity.

b) I would advocate for D&D to adopt some of the newer "clock" tech from games like Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark (for non-combat activities, anyway.) At least, as I see it, the problem with the current D&D paradigm is more along the lines of a lack of negotiated clarity about what is at risk and what is to be gained from each roll. Since that negotiation is not a part of the default behavior of calling for skill checks.
b1) Yes, 4e Skill Challenges were a not-so-great implementation of such clocks.


*I am part of a group that used to regularly auger through wooden doors "quietly" to spy on the next dungeon room. Apparently nobody else in the group had ever hand-augered a standing door before I got there....."quiet" is not an applicable phrase...."large drumhead" is more apt.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Why would a DM allow someone even the same amount of potency on something doable at-will as something doable behind a pay wall?

Its not about DM quality
I mean, you understand that a common complaint about 4e is that by codifying all the abilities (aka "buttons to push") that many players and DMs felt that you could not act without the ability enumerated, right?

While that may not have been accurate or fair in all aspects (page 42 etc.), it certainly had that effect on some groups and reputation. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius and all that.

So is it possible that maybe you just have a different view on this? That what you view as crippling (DM and player interaction and negotiation) is something that others find empowering in the sense that it allows for a more collaborative and freeform experience.

Again, it's not that you have to agree- not all systems are the best for all people; but it helps to at least understand. And while you do not agree with the masses, surely you must see that this approach has been easier to grok for at least some segment of the consumer base, right?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I can have a character improvise a ritual via a skill challenge context easily if 4e... in part because it has a cost. I can let it be more improvised.
 

Parmandur

Legend
This, I think, bears some truth. (As well as a Dunning-Kruger effect going the other way.) To which I would say two things:

a) It ends up not mattering as much as we think, because playgroups tend to share mentalities/worldviews. (That is, if everyone at the table thinks it should take 5 rolls instead of 1 or 2...its irrelevant to their enjoyment.)* Additionally, it lets different tables play to different motifs ("superheroic" vs "grim", etc.)
a1) I would also recommend D&D drop the "auto-success" aspect of magic/spellcasting. This, I think, is the real mechanical source of the disparity.

b) I would advocate for D&D to adopt some of the newer "clock" tech from games like Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark (for non-combat activities, anyway.) At least, as I see it, the problem with the current D&D paradigm is more along the lines of a lack of negotiated clarity about what is at risk and what is to be gained from each roll. Since that negotiation is not a part of the default behavior of calling for skill checks.
b1) Yes, 4e Skill Challenges were a not-so-great implementation of such clocks.


*I am part of a group that used to regularly auger through wooden doors "quietly" to spy on the next dungeon room. Apparently nobody else in the group had ever hand-augered a standing door before I got there....."quiet" is not an applicable phrase...."large drumhead" is more apt.
I personally love the Dungeon Crawl Classics implementation of spells (and Martial Stunting, for that matter). Skill checks that can cause serious, serious problems for the Caster and his friends.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
So is it possible that maybe you just have a different view on this? That what you view as crippling (DM and player interaction and negotiation)
The game isnt giving the player any negotiation tools (resources) in 5e land that I can see.

I just noted about being able to allow a player to improvise a ritual in 4e - and that really that is enabled because of skill challenge mechanics and having cost mechanisms and a process for "group success".
 

Parmandur

Legend
The game isnt giving the player any negotiation tools (resources) in 5e land that I can see.

I just noted about being able to allow a player to improvise a ritual in 4e - and that really that is enabled because of skill challenge mechanics and having cost mechanisms and a process for success.
Player: "I would like to X"

DM: "You can certainly try. DC 25 for Acrobatics."

Mechanical superstructure with a very mathematically streamlined process, right there.
 

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