D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Garthanos]

I think people fail to notice how small things in 4e enabled adaptability in character design (I pay attention to optimization so that I can make characters flexible and match alternative concepts without sacrificing functionality but some of it is done almost automatically for you). The F/R/W defense triples for instance. Basically not playing strictly to trope seems less punished (usually).

 

[cbwjm]

Not getting into the Warlord thing too deeply, but I think when 5e backed off of 4e's detailed tactical framework that it lost the ability to support a lot of what people are used to in the 4e warlord.

I feel like the 5e design team decided to remove the warlord and instead spread its kit around the various classes. It enables people to play a bard, rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, or even a barbarian and get some of the benefits of the warlord support skills. There might be other classes that also have some of the warlord style support abilities and there are at least a couple of feats that help with that style of character as well (in one case gaining access to battlemaster manoeuvres that can be spent on the warlordy skills). Although I liked the warlord in 4e and it would probably be my go to class (or maybe a hybrid warlord-wizard) if I had an opportunity to play 4e, I actually like the 5e method of spreading the kit around better.

 

[Garthanos]

The impression I get from folks who don't see an issue with classes as an impediment, or at least, less functional than could be desired tools, for building to concept, is that they get concept ideas from looking at classes.

Then they pretend "concept first" when it actually means concept handed to you. \\

Which to me is only supposed to be a starting point.

 

[Garthanos]

I feel like the 5e design team decided to remove the warlord and instead spread its kit around the various classes.

Sure they did... and yet tell that to my party wide aiding Intelligent tact-lord piff. This is one of two style Warlords in the players handbook not some highly specific singular Warlord.

To me they enforced intelligence is only for spell casting with a big raspberry on top.

The existence of the of the Sentinel feat does not preclude a specialist defender (like the Cavalier)

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then they pretend "concept first" when it actually means concept handed to you. \\

I didn't say nor mean to imply that. In fact, I pointed out that basing a concept on class was perfectly legitimate.

It's just concept-first is also legit, and a class-based system /can/ be powerful enough to do both - 3e & 4e both were. 5e compromises between that and the traditional class-straightjacketing of early eds, putting it close to 2e with it's Kits, or with options turned on, between 2e & 3e. Not a terrible place to be, but not as amenable to build-to-concept as 3e & 4e.

Had 4e been allowed to continue, I expect it only would have continued to improve in both regards, both in putting out more classes for ready-built concepts, and more player-optional customizations like Backgrounds & Themes, on top of free player-side reskinning, for build-to-concept.

 

[Umbran]

Then they pretend "concept first" when it actually means concept handed to you. \\

No. I think you may confuse concept with form.

Shakespeare didn't create the sonnet, for example. The concepts of his poems were his own, regardless of the fact that they are built specifically to use that framework.

 

[Remathilis]

I think people fail to notice how small things in 4e enabled adaptability in character design (I pay attention to optimization so that I can make characters flexible and match alternative concepts without sacrificing functionality but some of it is done almost automatically for you). The F/R/W defense triples for instance. Basically not playing strictly to trope seems less punished (usually).

Unless you were a rogue with a shortbow prior to Essentials.

 

[Garthanos]

No I use mechanics to express my concept...to support it. Having mechanics that are adaptable instead of locked down allows more concepts to be expressed

No. You confuse concept with form.

Shakespeare didn't create the sonnet, for example. The concepts of his poems were his own, regardless of the fact that they are built specifically to use that framework.

A sonnet is a highly adaptable set of mechanics

 

[Aldarc]

Okay, I succeeded in my Wisdom saving throw to resist talking about how much I love Fate.

I see people playing a metric ton of homebrew classes but it may indeed be the people with whom I interact are different. The prevalence on the web of homebrew classes makes me think my contacts are not so rare.

To me is demonstrates the lacking in 5e character design flexibility is explicitly not serving everyone. Just as the lack of support for the tactical warlord is not supporting everyone.

That was certainly true in the 3.X era as well. I think that sometimes it less about flexibility and more about particularity. There will almost always be someone who is not entirely satisfied by the current offer of choices. Or there will always be people who love to tinker and kitbash a system.

To the credit of 5e, it has provided a fairly robust chassis for that kitbashing as a result of its subclass system. Whereas the 3e era was more focused on creating new classes, 5e sees greater predominance of making new subclass fan creations for existing classes. Though I also find it a bit too much for my own liking, much as I later did in the 3e era.

 

[Garthanos]

Okay, I succeeded in my Wisdom saving throw to resist talking about how much I love Fate.

Hard to resist...

To the credit of 5e, it has provided a fairly robust chassis for that kitbashing as a result of its subclass system. Whereas the 3e era was more focused on creating new classes, 5e sees greater predominance of making new subclass fan creations for existing classes. Though I also find it a bit too much for my own liking, much as I later did in the 3e era.

While I have seen quite a few full classes as well as sub classes. I think its way too easy to find ones which are not particularly good as well. Those who want something else seem quite confident in trying them out though.