D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Garthanos]

Most players goals in my experience are fame & fortune through Sword & Sorcery bloodshed, which those modules deliver on with panache.

You do not have my players... one was freeing the slaves on broad scale (and finding safe haven and meaningful life for them), others were an international diplomat and her body guard(rejoining the world economy / scene instead of being isolationist) , others include a reincarnated "Unicorn Princess" being sent on what the higher ups considered suicide missions. Others were their countries high councilor who becomes concerned with his own country becoming clients of slavers to off set their failing population. One was an apprentice class mage with talent who wants to find a new teacher. Others were justiciars off to make the world better and make up for past bads they might have done.

 

[Parmandur]

You do not have my players... one was freeing the slaves on broad scale, others were an international diplomat and her body guard, others was a reincarnated "Unicorn Princess" being sent on what the higher ups considered suicide missions. Others were there countries high councilor who becomes concerned with his own country becoming clients of slavers to off set there failing population. One was an apprentice class mage with talent who wants to find a new teacher.

I don't see how the old modules would be terribly difficult to use and work in those goals and motivations.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Parmandur]

Yeah, when I say that I can adapt them on the fly, I mean not only to the 5e ruleset, but also to the specific needs of my group.

The advantage of the old modules (as opposed to the modern APs) is that they prevent a good, and SHORT, canvas on which to paint your own details with a minimum of fuss.

I prefer a quick adventure that can be run in 1 to 2 sessions than the lock-in of the modern AP.

To be fair, with WotC output at least, they are actually 1-2 session old school modules with a nebulous connecting membrane for those who want that. Chris Perkins does that very much on purpose.

 

[Umbran]

So what I am saying is that you are approaching the problem ... differently. You've got the wrong mindset. I wrote about this a while ago, but 1e (in terms of play) had a very, very different ethos than what you are imagining.

So, I was there in the 80s, playing the game. I don't feel like my personal experience is somehow lacking, that I need to accept your assertion of "the ethos" to me. Nor do I have to accept your assertions of what my mindset is, or what I am imagining. Please keep your discussion to what I express, not what I think beyond those expressions.

This is what I was getting at; there was an assumption that you could make ad hoc rulings, but the absence of a rule simply meant that the rule hadn't been made yet.

With respect, I reject your version of the ethos, and suggest my own: Nobody really knew what they were doing, and made things up as one-off rulings, with no concern for consistency.

On day, lava does X damage. Next module, it gives a save, and does Y damage. You try a thing, the GM makes up a ruling on the spot - but it did not become a new rule. Typically, it was considered a one-off, and the GM forgot what they decided before, and came up with a new ruling the next time you try the same thing, and they didn't match.

So, it's very different. Completely so, I would say.

Yeah, today, we have an ethos that games ought to be well-designed.

Less glibly - the thing you seem to be missing in this is that "it was the ethos" does not make it magically work for everyone.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Garthanos]

I don't see how the old modules would be terribly difficult to use and work in those goals and motivations.

Yay dungeon clearing for profit can be brilliantly shoe horned. into sonething socially aware heroes who rarely cared about gold might be ok with.... Again I dont agree and I found them useless. Aside from stealing an interesting scene.Further that was ok as I never bought one nor had expectations as i was obviously not the target Loki was with greed is good "heros"

 

[Parmandur]

Yay dungeon clearing for profit can be brilliantly shoe horned. into sonething socially aware heroes who rarely cared about gold might be ok with.... Again I dont agree and I found them useless. Aside from stealing an interesting scene.Further that was ok as I never bought one nor had expectations as i was obviously not the target Loki was with greed is good "heros"

Well, they fit well for swashbuckling pulp adventures, which is where D&D really shines overall.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think you needed to be quite so defensive.

I am defending nothing. I did note a bit that you were trying to teach a grandmother to suck eggs, but that is less being defensive, and more, "Dude, you're gamer'splaining."

That said, despite your long wind up, you seem to be agreeing with me, in that I stated that 1e had a myriad number of ways to attempt to resolve issues, and 5e has a unified mechanic.

Um, not quite.

5e has a unified mechanic, but "unified" is not the same as "generalized". 5e is still pretty much a list of approved actions, it is just those approved actions all have similar mechanics for determining success - rolling a d20 and adding some stuff.

What keeps it from being generalized is that while the thing you need to do to determine success is common, there is no common framework for what success actually does.

I noted a fine example, which you promptly ignored - sand in the eyes.

In 1e... whatever the GM says.

In 5e, I can expect I will need to roll a d20, and add some stuff. Unless instead the target is making a save, in which case they are rolling a d20 and adding some stuff. There are several options of what determines the DC - the GM gets to pick. And as for the result: Maybe it is hit points of damage. Maybe it is disadvantage on some roll. Maybe it is some level of concealment. It is... whatever the GM says.

I am not convinced that "unified mechanic" is really helping all that much over 1e, in terms of "freeform action".