D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Parmandur]

I am defending nothing. I did note a bit that you were trying to teach a grandmother to suck eggs, but that is less being defensive, and more, "Dude, you're gamer'splaining."



Um, not quite.

5e has a unified mechanic, but "unified" is not the same as "generalized". 5e is still pretty much a list of approved actions, it is just those approved actions all have similar mechanics for determining success - rolling a d20 and adding some stuff.

What keeps it from being generalized is that while the thing you need to do to determine success is common, there is no common framework for what success actually does.

I noted a fine example, which you promptly ignored - sand in the eyes.

In 1e... whatever the GM says.

In 5e, I can expect I will need to roll a d20, and add some stuff. Unless instead the target is making a save, in which case they are rolling a d20 and adding some stuff. There are several options of what determines the DC - the GM gets to pick. And as for the result: Maybe it is hit points of damage. Maybe it is disadvantage on some roll. Maybe it is some level of concealment. It is... whatever the GM says.

I am not convinced that "unified mechanic" is really helping all that much over 1e, in terms of "freeform action".

Well, it allows action in a free-form manner, with improvisation by the DM and players. Not reinventing the wheel every time, but not hampered by rules, either.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Garthanos]

This isn't about hostility. It is about consistency, and having a shared understanding about what the odds for and impact of success are. You know - what we have rules for in general.

I am doubling down in support of this. The game has a job of helping to create shared expectations and to me a game that says improvise it is not doing its job. The resource disparity between casters and not casters obfuscates the issue about these expectations it doesn't make it better. There is a resource all D&D heroes have which sometimes cast as luck or divine favor and others injury (could be muscle strains sometimes even) and which might be expended when one reaches for or strains to do the virtually impossible. The first variant magic system I made up in 1e days involved expending hit points to cast spells.

 

[Parmandur]

I am doubling down in support of this. The game has a job of helping to create shared expectations and to me a game that says improvise it is not doing its job. The resource disparity between casters and not casters obfuscates the issue about these expectations it doesn't make it better. There is a resource all D&D heroes have which sometimes cast as luck or divine favor and others injury (could be muscle strains sometimes even) and which might be expended when one reaches for or strains to do the virtually impossible. The first variant magic system I made up in 1e days involved expending hit points to cast spells.

If the game provides a mathematically sound framework, to apply as needed...that's creating shared expectations.

 

[Hussar]

We should note that, outside of combat (where we might measure effectiveness with, say, hit points of damage dealt), there is rarely a useful measure of effectiveness. We can't reasonably say if something was twice as effective or not. There is only perception of effectiveness, and usually then only in a hypothetical sense, as we don't see how the universe of the standard action, and that of the improvised action, unroll side by side.

Fair enough. But, by the same token, I've seen more than a few descriptions of judgements on these boards to recognize that no, people really, really do not have a good grasp on the math.

/snip

In the same way that, for example, 5e can be said to allow for a very easy, free-form style of play ... but maybe not for you. As Parmandur keeps reiterating, 5e has allowed for a massive explosion of people playing, especially new people and young people, many of whom play a free-form style.
/snip

Where is the proof that new and young people prefer free form style? Outside of your own experience that is.

Anyway, I'll just leave this on the table. There is an entire billion dollar industry (actually more than one) BASED on the fact that people are poor judges of odds. Never minding actual gambling, there's also things like Loot Boxes for video games which, as a sales model, is now worth hundreds of billions of dollars. So, this notion that "snap judgements" are somehow accurate just doesn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny.

 

[Hussar]

Player: "I would like to X"

DM: "You can certainly try. DC 25 for Acrobatics."

Mechanical superstructure with a very mathematically streamlined process, right there.

Bingo, there we have it right there. My odds of success are now set. Presume a +10 in Acrobatics (extremely high outside of a rogue or magic), and my chance of success at that check is 25%. So, I'm going to fail 3 times out of 4. Now, what is the reward for that action? In gambling, you'd need to give at least 3:1 odds on that. Probably 5:2. In other words I should be able to accomplish something that is three TIMES more effective than normal. I should be able to jump nearly 60 feet (presuming an 18 Str). I should be climbing up a wall at faster than my walking speed, Jackie Chan style. On and on. A DC 25 is superhuman.

Yet, virtually no DM will ever rule it that way.

 

[Parmandur]

Fair enough. But, by the same token, I've seen more than a few descriptions of judgements on these boards to recognize that no, people really, really do not have a good grasp on the math.



Where is the proof that new and young people prefer free form style? Outside of your own experience that is.

Anyway, I'll just leave this on the table. There is an entire billion dollar industry (actually more than one) BASED on the fact that people are poor judges of odds. Never minding actual gambling, there's also things like Loot Boxes for video games which, as a sales model, is now worth hundreds of billions of dollars. So, this notion that "snap judgements" are somehow accurate just doesn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny.

Those are examples of considered (poorly) judgements, not flash judgements.

 

[Parmandur]

Bingo, there we have it right there. My odds of success are now set. Presume a +10 in Acrobatics (extremely high outside of a rogue or magic), and my chance of success at that check is 25%. So, I'm going to fail 3 times out of 4. Now, what is the reward for that action? In gambling, you'd need to give at least 3:1 odds on that. Probably 5:2. In other words I should be able to accomplish something that is three TIMES more effective than normal. I should be able to jump nearly 60 feet (presuming an 18 Str). I should be climbing up a wall at faster than my walking speed, Jackie Chan style. On and on. A DC 25 is superhuman.

Yet, virtually no DM will ever rule it that way.

I'd allow it.

 

[Garthanos]

Bingo, there we have it right there. My odds of success are now set. Presume a +10 in Acrobatics (extremely high outside of a rogue or magic), and my chance of success at that check is 25%. So, I'm going to fail 3 times out of 4. Now, what is the reward for that action? In gambling, you'd need to give at least 3:1 odds on that. Probably 5:2. In other words I should be able to accomplish something that is three TIMES more effective than normal. I should be able to jump nearly 60 feet (presuming an 18 Str). I should be climbing up a wall at faster than my walking speed, Jackie Chan style. On and on. A DC 25 is superhuman.

Yet, virtually no DM will ever rule it that way.

Yup... reward pay off bingo... in the land of improvised chances.

 

[Garthanos]

...that's creating shared expectations.

Nope you told me earlier that what i want to accomplish is going to be entirely based on the table and I really cannot predict what my using not magic character can do ... (you brought up Wuxia to emphasize it) You do not get your cake and eat it too. It looks to me like 5e ate the idea of predictable ability in anything but combat unless you are a spell caster which is perhaps why the Ranger is now dripping with spells