D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Parmandur]

"We have a lot of strict rules, except where we don't," is 1)not really all that free-form, and 2) not really a selling point.

If "freeform" is desirable, and it is play without rules... why are folks who want it playing with a ruleset at all? Why aren't we playing just by "GM says so"? In practice, the GM becomes a set of rules you have to play with - just not rules written down where everyone can know them beforehand.

"Freeform" is a wonderfully vague term, and can mean almost anything. It does not need to mean "play without rules". It can mean "play without much restriction" - which, interestingly, can be supported with a ruleset - if the ruleset allows what you want, without having to make up a new rule or ruling each time you do something novel, then the result is freeform.

I submit that freeform gaming is better supported by a flexible ruleset than it is with a strict ruleset with many gaps you have to fill on the fly.

Yes? I agree?

The 5E action resolution is a flexible system for judging an action declaration, and either letting it succeed or choosing one of a handful of numbers, and resolving that immediately. This is what I would define as a system, that is flexible.

 

[Garthanos]

That's pretty mobile, and it is three dimensional, and...no resource limitation.

It is a long way from flying even the level 17 one is just 4 hoppity hops.

 

[Garthanos]

Then again Fairies get racial flying at level 1. (with less hops) disappointing the beer drinkers probably

 

[Garthanos]

Feather fall is also a great example of a spell made more powerful in 5e.

 

[Garthanos]

Feather fall is also a great example of a spell made more powerful in 5e.

Something hopefully not characterizing where 4e was headed

 

[Umbran]

The 5E action resolution is a flexible system for judging an action declaration, and either letting it succeed or choosing one of a handful of numbers, and resolving that immediately.

Except, in this, it is incomplete. This has been noted several times already, and each time it has been ignored: 5e allows us to have a basic idea of how to succeed.

But, 5e does not give us an idea of what the success means, in terms of impact either in terms of the game rules, or the fiction. A player cannot make a well-informed decision on actions to take without knowing both what is required to succeed, and what success actually means.

This is where Garthanos' complaints come in, and folks seem to ignore the point - as a player of a non-magical character, he doesn't have much idea of what feats of derring-do he can pull off. Nowhere in the rules are we given decent guidelines for it. Folks seem to try to claim that's a feature ('Cuz that means it if freeform!), but really, what it means is that the player is in the dark, and that's not a good thing.

So, we come down to this - 5e may seem freeform when compared to, say, 3e. But that's a low bar. Compared to a game actually designed for freeform play, 5e looks more like a pretty strict system, with some space for GMs to figure it out where there's a gap.

 

[Parmandur]

Except, in this, it is incomplete. This has been noted several times already, and each time it has been ignored: 5e allows us to have a basic idea of how to succeed.

But, 5e does not give us an idea of what the success means, in terms of impact either in terms of the game rules, or the fiction. A player cannot make a well-informed decision on actions to take without knowing both what is required to succeed, and what success actually means.

This is where Garthanos' complaints come in, and folks seem to ignore the point - as a player of a non-magical character, he doesn't have much idea of what feats of derring-do he can pull off. Nowhere in the rules are we given decent guidelines for it. Folks seem to try to claim that's a feature ('Cuz that means it if freeform!), but really, what it means is that the player is in the dark, and that's not a good thing.

So, we come down to this - 5e may seem freeform when compared to, say, 3e. But that's a low bar. Compared to a game actually designed for freeform play, 5e looks more like a pretty strict system, with some space for GMs to figure it out where there's a gap.

The point is, people are playing the game free-form: it's free-form in practice, theory aside.

The system doesn't dictate possibilities, only lay out probabilities to be used as desired, and quickly.

 

[Hussar]

The point is, people are playing the game free-form: it's free-form in practice, theory aside.

The system doesn't dictate possibilities, only lay out probabilities to be used as desired, and quickly.

Which means that in practice there is only as much free forming as the dm will allow. Which, generally, means not very much.

So the players are trained to not freeform but rather to simply rely on magic because then they can actually make informed decisions.

That you might allow my character to jump 60 feet for a dc 25 athletics check is not a feature of the game.

 

[Parmandur]

Which means that in practice there is only as much free forming as the dm will allow. Which, generally, means not very much.

So the players are trained to not freeform but rather to simply rely on magic because then they can actually make informed decisions.

That you might allow my character to jump 60 feet for a dc 25 athletics check is not a feature of the game.

Soooo it is better to limit free-forming to what a far off game designer will allow...?

 

[Hussar]

Soooo it is better to limit free-forming to what a far off game designer will allow...?

No. It's better to limit free-forming (as in totally off the cuff, ad hoc rulings) to what someone who is designing the game can build in guidelines for. As in Page 42 in 4e. IOW, relying on "snap judgement" and "common sense" results in garbage games more often than not since very, very few DM's actually can do the math to make "outside the box" thinking worth it.

Like I said, I've seen it over the past several decades. Players have all their creativity and "outside the box" thinking beaten out of them pretty quickly once they realize that that only way they can actually do anything "outside the box" is play a spell caster.

Or do you really think it's an accident that almost all of the 5e class have spells?