D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[lowkey13]

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[Imaro]

...(i) it is less determined by the GM solely and more amenable to player judgement call... and (ii) provides the GM a clearer framework within which to adjudicate those player calls.

Could you expound on this in more depth? And just so you know where I'm finding a disconnect with your statements...

(i)
In 4e the DM has a range of numbers representing easy, moderate, hard. DM makes a judgement call on which category a particular action falls into. Player makes check.

In 5e the DM has a range of numbers representing easy, moderate, hard and very hard. DM makes a judgement call on which category a particular action falls into. Player makes check.

(II)... clearer in what way? Through examples? Because the math for both editions is pretty transparent as long as you are basing default on the chance of an unskilled average character succeeding.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Campbell]

I addressed Fifth Edition not out of some desire to engage in edition warring. Rather because I do not believe there is strong connective tissue between the different games that bear the name Dungeons and Dragons. There are phenomenal differences in terms of play procedures, reward systems, and culture of play. Moldvay style dungeon crawling bears little resemblance to Gygaxian play which is phenomenally different from storyteller oriented play which was the norm for 2nd Edition. I prefer to speak to specific games and cultures of play.

I will be more than to discuss what makes a game big tent and what those features are. I have my own experiences and thoughts I would like to share as someone who is deeply appreciative of both indie games and the OSR movement.

 

[Garthanos]

My view is that 4e's skill system is more freeform as (i) it is less determined by the GM solely and more amenable to player judgement call, and (ii) provides the GM a clearer framework within which to adjudicate those player calls.

Players and GMs having no foundations for what can within the very definite lines defined by the resource management and spell system! = I keep saying the spell system and its thousand bits of rules, binds d&d flavor and genre more than any other element.

A DM might realize what I wanted the character to do is a close analogy to a reduced form of feather fall(as it only saves 1 other not the entire party.)

But we have this elephant in the room that even the proponents feel binds the free-form element but with no indicators aside from reading and doing deep analysis of every single spell element. OR he might not at all.

This view of mine is grounded in a broader view, that being freeform is about the player-side experience of the system.

This is a pattern of free-form games of player agency which is why earlier I mentioned Fate points sure both DMs and players interact with fate points but they are very much permission slips for the player interjecting in a very definite empowered way in the story and of comparatively huge scale. Inspiration is rather weaker in part because it has only what would be seen in fate as a lesser pure mechanistic implementation.

 

[Garthanos]

Second, I explicitly said the "large history of norms, expectations, and house rules ..." Which part is unclear?

I have to admit I wasn't expecting your definition of big tent... I look at how I made my house ruled "Martial Practices" and how I used precedent from 1e monk and magic hating barbarian and fighter abilities and how some of the things i very much liked about 4e was feeling that i could finally effectively protect the squishies in the broader game - an expectation Gygax himself created in his descriptions of the role of the fighter. And how i was finally able to play the tactical strategic warrior lord described in the 2e player's handbook. And how class battle roles seemed to very nicely express the expectations which were mentioned even way back by Arneson talking about how the earliest party was patterned after the US army Fireteam

And yeah by that definition D&D is what you are talking about.

 

[Garthanos]

Heck I didnt even like the magic hating Barbarian from back in the day but I felt it worthwhile to give it a nod....

 

[Garthanos]

Spell caster starts singing the elf ditty about anything you can do I can do better!!!!

And to be honest not actually better but very much more flexible (caster gets the tool to undo elements of its limits ... trading one cost perhaps for another while martial type is stuck with a singular function because you know magic is interesting)

This has Inspired me to do a Homebrew ritual - Arcane Power II material what the hell.

There is a spell in Harry Potter flicks (and featured in the recent offshoot) where those subject to it get somewhat selective amnesia - It is often used by Comic book mages as well. We could call it Blessed Forgetfulness. This is probably too vague but its a first flash of idea.

Blessed Forgetfulness: Subject loses memories of recent negative experiences this effect is typically "permanent" the memories are actually buried and it should be considered a mental affliction (and thus can be affected by both the psychotherapy practice and the remove affliction ritual).
The subject will generally lose recently acquired negative reaction modifiers. They also will tend to fill in the blanks with normal everyday stuff for example instead of their aunt being ripped to pieces by the monster your character failed to defeat they might remember her dying of some common illness. Attitudes toward the party will generally now reset to a neutral state.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Campbell]

Here's the thing. Every game is designed in fits and starts. Before Blades in the Dark and Dungeon World were published games they were just a thing that John Harper's play group like did. The play experience of Blades was deeply informed by games as diverse as Fate, Polaris, Apocalypse World, Basic D&D, Stars Without Number, and Talislanta. It's spawned innumerable games based on it. It's all part of a larger cultural conversation about games. Like part of the process of play is the group making it their own on a fundamental level. There is a rich tradition and lineage here too.

All a roleplaying game is on a fundamental level is a set of shared expectations and norms for a conversation we are having about a fiction. This is true for all roleplaying games. I have played Blades with people from all walks of life include some OSR guys, some more traditional gamers, and some other indie guys. How is this not fundamentally alchemy in the same sense?

Like given the same group of people sitting down to play a game what makes Dungeons and Dragons fundamentally different from any other game in this way?