D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Campbell]

I am also saying this as someone who has ran and played most iterations of Dungeons and Dragons including Moldvay, Second Edition, Third Edition, Fourth Edition, and Fifth Edition as well as OSR games like Stars Without Number. I have never experienced that feeling that Dungeons and Dragons is uniquely flexible. Good at what it does sure, but almost always centered on challenge focused cooperative group play.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What particular features of Fifth Edition make it a big tent game in a way that other games are not?

The D&D name & history.

It's more a bartizan than a tent, though - it's the gateway to the hobby.

There is the (apocryphal and untrue) quote attributed to Pauline Kael, along the lines, "I don't know how Nixon could have won, because no one I know voted for him."

It's an older joke than that, my grandfather used to say it about FDR.

And, there is a lot of echo-chambering on-line.

An important thing to remember, when considering that one may be generalizing from their own clique or, similarly, appealing to popularity, is that, wild fad popularity that it enjoyed in the 80s, and resurgence that it's enjoying now, notwithstanding, it's always been kinda an insular, unpopular, hobby.

we all suffer from the belief that our experience is more universal than it is, and fail to see the ways in which it is not,

I get the impression a lot of folks quite enjoy it. They sure don't seem to be suffering, anyway.

In the instant case, you have a very strong attachment to a system that you believe allowed it to be liberating; that same system, for <me>, was constraining.

I think the clear takeaway, here, is that the "constraining" and "liberating" observations are not, in themselves, telling us much.

Ultimately, all RPGs are potentially "infinite games," capable of changing and expanding in play, with the possibility of successful play continuing the game, rather then being judged only at the end, by who won.

One might find details of a specific RPG "constraining," especially in a subjective sense, while others find different aspects "liberating."

Parmandur keeps reiterating, 5e has allowed for a massive explosion of people playing, especially new people and young people.

And returning ones, yes. It has /allowed/ the come-back to roll. Or been allowed to, by it's established fan base, who could have gotten in the way of it.

But, it's hard to say that this or that detail of the system is responsible.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Ratskinner]

I don't agree with this.

The only point of resemblance that I see is the need for judgement. Beyond that I don't see any resemblance at all.

That is all the necessary resemblance. Judgements will differ. Thus, it will be similar in that some GMs will (effectively) set some odds of success/or difficulty to more or less open interpretations. I've seen very little in the way of semi-traditional rpg games that have what I consider "freeform" mechanics that don't require such judgements. The closest I'm aware of is Capes, but its hardly traditional. The biggest difference I see (despite their proponents objections) between most of these systems is the advice given to GMs as to how liberal they should be in interpreting such things.

In 5e D&D there is the need to maintain some sort of in-ficiton relationship between magic and non-magic, and the need to maintain the integrity of the resource system, and the need to have some sense of probabilities to ensure that the difficulty is verisimiltudinous. These are the break points for the system (as it has been articulated by various posters in this thread who are advocating for its freeform character).

None of those sorts of pressures operate in Cthulhu Dark. It has no break points in this sense.

Which is one reason why I find the idea of 5e = freeform extremely odd.

I don't see 5e as particularly freeform to my way of thinking. What it does allow is flexibility in what exactly a skill check might mean or how to set such difficulties. The need to maintain that relationship between mundane and magical allows the DM to bend the game towards the "gonzo action" of 4e or the "gritty realism" of GoT (regardless of how one views the accuracy or attitude of those descriptors.) I've seen this happen in my own group. Three of us have DMed 5e and each game had its own feel, in part because of this flexibility. (You actually get more dimensions of flexibility, because different skill areas can be adjudicated differently.)

To address some of the other points (all IMO/IME): the integrity of the resource system is not really all that important to defend. The narrative difference between the skill check effects and a spell seem plenty sufficient. At least my players would find the level-creeping difficulty of 4e less verisimilitudinous (is that a word?) than constantly negotiating the DCs of 5e (then again, I preferred a little more action in that campaign, so I don't think I set a DC above 20.) I'm not certain of it, but I think it has to do with 5e's bounded accuracy and some of the other design decisions. The system takes a lot, and I mean a lot more, to "break" in the way that 3e did. (Although it still certainly has a few issues here and there.)

But this, I think is where the meaning of "freeform" has been fuzzy. I wouldn't call 5e's flexibility this way as "freeform". I also wouldn't call 4e particularly freeform, either. There may be differences (to my eyes minor) in the freedom to perform or try different actions, but both systems are fairly...static? Defined?

As a D&D-like counter-example to what I would mean by freeform, I would point to 13th Age. Your "skills" and One Unique Thing, are wide open. For the "buddy falling off a cliff" situation, we all know that some kind of Athletics or Acrobatics check will be involved. Not so with 13th Age.

 

[pemerton]

I don't see 5e as particularly freeform to my way of thinking. What it does allow is flexibility in what exactly a skill check might mean or how to set such difficulties.

I'm not sure how this really differs from any of the following games:

* 4e D&D (other than a few defined skill-uses - Acro to reduce falling damage, Athletics to establish jump distances on the tactical map);

* Classic Traveller (other than a few defined skill-uses - repairing damaged engines/vehicles; most combat-oriented checks);

* Rolemaster (other than combat and spell-casting which are fairly tightly defined skill uses);

Etc.

If the contrast is with 3E D&D that's a fairly narrow contrast class.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm not sure how this really differs from any of the following games:

* 4e D&D (other than a few defined skill-uses - Acro to reduce falling damage, Athletics to establish jump distances on the tactical map);

* Classic Traveller (other than a few defined skill-uses - repairing damaged engines/vehicles; most combat-oriented checks);

* Rolemaster (other than combat and spell-casting which are fairly tightly defined skill uses);

Etc.

If the contrast is with 3E D&D that's a fairly narrow contrast class.

I would put Rolemaster and Traveller into the same boat, in terms of being free-form (Traveller is one of my favorite games, and I'd snap up any Rolemaster or MERP books I found on sight). 4E is a funny comparison, since I agree with @Hussar that 5E uses the 4E system with some evolution. That evolution, however, is towards a more fast and loose approach to non-combat action resolution that I would call more free-form (combat resolution is also a bit less buttoned down).

 

[Ratskinner]

In my 4e game I remember one occasion where the ranger, who could safely fall super-far with good Acrobatics and a Safewing Amulet, dove over a cliff to catch the invoker/wizard who'd been pushed over it.

This was easy to resolve in 4e. I've got no idea how it would be resolved in 5e - are there rules for using a DEX check to reduce falling damage?

4th level monks have a Slow Fall ability. I don't have the 5e books beyond the big 3, so maybe there's an acrobat class somewhere with it?

However, the PHB section on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, specifically mentions performing "dives" (along with rolls, somersaults, and flips). Presumably, this means dives without getting damaged. I don't think I've had to adjudicate this situation, but if the PC made the appropriate check then I could see it being for no damage or maybe half damage. (the height of the fall, tone of the game, etc. would play a roll in setting the DC and consequences.)

 

[Campbell]

Sure. The population of players who play games that are not D&D derivatives is smaller, but I do not see how that speaks to diversity of play or how flexible the games are in play. All of that speaks to the size of the play culture. It does not meaningfully address diversity of play or ability to use the game for dramatically different purposes. Diversity and population size are not meaningfully correlated.

This does not bear out to my actual lived experiences of playing games like Apocalypse World where I do not have an monster stats or combat rules to hide behind or Blades in the Dark where what magic is capable of gets defined through play. When Vincent Baker released Apocalypse World and everyone remarked on the GM section John Harper was like isn't that just how you GM. I mean it is not like I become this different person when I run Apocalypse World rather than say Pathfinder or I belong to some insular bubble. We are all part of a larger hobby and bring our experiences with us.

Nearly every GM of a game like Blades has been a GM of many other games, often one or several of the games sprung from Dungeons and Dragons. There are different expectations, but not more narrow ones. My experiences running games like Blades has informed my GMing of Fifth Edition and the opposite is also true.

Like I am honestly perplexed here. All systems our is a way to structure the conversation that forms play. Every game I play that handles things like the GM role or what part of the game we use mechanics for or when we go to the mechanics exposes me to new techniques and helps me improve my skills as a GM. Stuff like soft and hard GM moves from Apocalypse World or countdown clocks from Blades become tools in my toolbox for hacking and running other games. Just like 10 minutes turns from B/X are another tool in my toolbox when I need them. Sometimes I run games straight because I like trying on new techniques and seeing how everything works.

I don't care about system over the play experience. I care about system because I deeply care about the play experience.

 

[lowkey13]

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