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lowkey13
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I posted an action scene that occurred in a 4e game, and asked about comparisons of resolution to 5e.
The replies I got were that what I described was downtime that only those with the "leisure" to indulge in downtime would actually resolve via mechanics.
For me, that seems to completely reframe the previos X (= 30-odd?) pages of discussion about non-combat resolution. Because I know what I think that consists in. But the 5e perspective seems to be that what I'm thinking about is "downtime".
I posted an action scene that occurred in a 4e game, and asked about comparisons of resolution to 5e.
The replies I got were that what I described was downtime that only those with the "leisure" to indulge in downtime would actually resolve via mechanics.
For me, that seems to completely reframe the previos X (= 30-odd?) pages of discussion about non-combat resolution. Because I know what I think that consists in. But the 5e perspective seems to be that what I'm thinking about is "downtime".
Sure I'll stick to epic tier. Let's look at the DC for a low epic character
Easy: 19 Mod: 26 Hard: 35
That same 4th level character can achieve the easy difficulty with a roll of 7, a roll of 14 for moderate and could probably hit hard with the help of magic...
Top Epic
Easy: 24 Mod: 32 Hard: 42
That same 4th level character can achieve the easy difficulty with a roll of 12, a roll of 20 for moderate (probably easier when everything available to a 4e character is factored in) and could possibly hit hard with the help of magic (Not certain about this but then this is the same effect the DC 30 in 5e creates)...
I think my general point still stands... these are supposed to be the feats of near gods and a 4th level character can accomplish them if given the chance to roll.
Ok I apologize for my poor choice of words but let me make my point clear... there is no hard separation mathematically between the tasks a heroic tier character could achieve in the game and what an epic character could achieve ( except possibly at the most extreme end, and I believe even that is attainable if everything available to a 4e character is factored in).
My larger point is that I understand 4e tied certain fiction description, tropes, etc. to certain DC's... but it is only through the hand of the DM gating DC's that said fictional differences are mathematically maintained. This can be accomplished in 5e (or not if one chooses to disregard the possibility of gating DC checks) as well (and I gave examples of how earlier). The main difference I see in the two editions is that 4e has more tightly bound it's game to a specific genre with specific tropes but gives more robust advice and direction around gating (thus the claims of it feeling more restrictive and narrow)... while 5e leaves it pretty much open giving one the tools and a minimum of advice around genres and leaving it up to the individual DM to decide how said tools can be used to create said genre (thus the claims of it not being precise enough or too open in it's resolution for some).
EDIT: Just thought about it the other big difference is that 4e has DC's that are subjective (what a Hard DC is numerically changes depending on level) while 5e has objective DC's (what a hard DC is, 20 stays the same number no matter what level...though the actual check to make the DC's in both games are still subject to DM determination on appropriateness, DM set modifiers, DM set adv/disadv, and so on.
2) 67 % or greater success rate is what 4e maths are aiming for. Hit that and your archetype is realized. Fail to hit that and you aren't going to positively move the gamestate's micro or macro trajectory through the deployment of that Skill. Its not, "can you hit it at all?" Its "can you reliably 'move story units' (succeed within the framework of 4e's noncombat conflict resolution mechanics) through the conflict-in/conflict-out deployment of this skill?"
3) Again, to bring it back to the original premise, this was to compare the "noncombat story-unit-moving through archetype" of a Fighter who fights Red Dragon Wyrmlings vs one who fights Ancient Red Dragons. Do they scale in proportion to the magnitude of the scaling inherent to the differential in that combat task? Hence why level 5 (mid Heroic) and level 30 (end game Epic) were chosen.
A level 5 Fighter is going to have somewhere around a +13 Athletics.
Level 30 Medium DC is going to require a 19 to hit. 10 % chance. That isn't remotely legitimate. Again, "capable of hitting" isn't the litmus test for actual play.
Here's my particular concern when it comes to making judgement calls based on shifting genre concerns in a play environment where spells have a dramatic impact outside of combat: How do we do it hygienically?
So game designers don't have to be fair or consistent? Hm... that explains a lot, actually... ;PWhat I mean by this is as levels raise how do we keep our rulings consistent and fair in a way that guarantees we are acting as referees rather than game designers when we make our judgments?
...using a balanced system, up-front, should help a lot...Basically how can we attach our decisions to things that are true in the game state without meaningfully making a determination based on things like game balance
…setting up characters & situations that would produce strong narratives however the dice end up falling? That is, that are interesting, and don't depend on stock outcomes?...or narrative outcomes?
The flipside of this: a system in which all crafting, carousing etc is "downtime" rather than action scenes doesn't seem to me a terribly big tent.For what it is worth, downtime is actually a defined thing in 5E, for doing stuff such as you describe (crafting, carrousing, carrying on a professional life for an extended period of time, etc.).
"Downtime" is just stuff that's resolved on a scale of days, rather than rounds, minutes or hours. It needn't be 'down' in the sense of unimportant.For me, that seems to completely reframe the previos X (= 30-odd?) pages of discussion about non-combat resolution. Because I know what I think that consists in. But the 5e perspective seems to be that what I'm thinking about is "downtime".