D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[pemerton]

No, but all combat resolution is combat related. Crafting isn't combat, so uses other rules, termed "downtime" in D&D. There are other Skill resolution systems, such as chases, but downtime activities that don't involve fighting are not resolved as fights.

If someone playing 5e wanted to resolve the question of whether or not a powerful dwarven fighter/cleric can successfully reforge a dwarven artefact, how would that differ from the example I posted? I don't see that it would be very different at all, except that the issue of finality of resolution would be ad hoc GM judgement rather than a skill challenge framework.

 

[pemerton]

Structure is not inherently bad, but formally it is not as free as loose suggestions: the latter is more free-form because it is not restricted in formal terms, even if there are suggested ways to resolve something.

Yes. This is precisely @Campbell's point. Skill challenges are more freeform than distinct subsystems for exploration, crafting etc - because the structure can be applied to a very wide range of non-combat situations, with the time involved being vary variable, the actions declared constrained only by player and GM sense of the genre/tropes and the fiction, and the resolutions being whatever the GM thinks (i) honours the successes and failures rolled and (ii) fits with the unfolding fiction.

These structures might help some people, but fast and loose processes help others.

Yes. @Campbell has drifted away from a preference for 4e-style freeform (eg skill challenges) because of a preference for structure.

For similar reasons I would expect that Campbell would prefer PbtA systems to (say) Burning Wheel or HeroWars/Quest - those latter two don't generally use specific structures to determine specific consequences but rather (very much like 4e skill challenges) rely heavily on GM extrapolation from the fiction.

in 5E downtime is time that is down from action-packed adventuring, so the combat expectations and resource management are not in play and violence is not expected. The game has rules for resolving this at the table, particularly with all of the random charts in Xanathar's Guide to Everything to come up with quick stories about time not adventuring.

This is an example of structured resolution, it seems to me. And to me it doesn't seem especially well-suited to dealing with the sort of action I described in my actual play example. And it seems to rest on an "adventuring"/"downtime" contrast that (i) is not core to how I approach RPGing, and (ii) draws the line in a different place from where it might be drawn. For instance, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic uses a distinction between action and transition scenes, but transition scenes encompass elements of what 5e would classify as "adventuring" (especially but not only travel), and can involved resource management just as much as action scenes (the relevant resource being "plot points", which can be spent in either sort of scene to enhance outcomes).

 

[Parmandur]

If someone playing 5e wanted to resolve the question of whether or not a powerful dwarven fighter/cleric can successfully reforge a dwarven artefact, how would that differ from the example I posted? I don't see that it would be very different at all, except that the issue of finality of resolution would be ad hoc GM judgement rather than a skill challenge framework.

Yes, exactly. It can be handled the way you did, or the way @lowkey13 would do it, or a million ways in between. The form is free from one restricted path.

 

[Parmandur]

Yes. This is precisely @Campbell's point. Skill challenges are more freeform than distinct subsystems for exploration, crafting etc - because the structure can be applied to a very wide range of non-combat situations, with the time involved being vary variable, the actions declared constrained only by player and GM sense of the genre/tropes and the fiction, and the resolutions being whatever the GM thinks (i) honours the successes and failures rolled and (ii) fits with the unfolding fiction.

Yes. @Campbell has drifted away from a preference for 4e-style freeform (eg skill challenges) because of a preference for structure.

For similar reasons I would expect that Campbell would prefer PbtA systems to (say) Burning Wheel or HeroWars/Quest - those latter two don't generally use specific structures to determine specific consequences but rather (very much like 4e skill challenges) rely heavily on GM extrapolation from the fiction.

This is an example of structured resolution, it seems to me. And to me it doesn't seem especially well-suited to dealing with the sort of action I described in my actual play example. And it seems to rest on an "adventuring"/"downtime" contrast that (i) is not core to how I approach RPGing, and (ii) draws the line in a different place from where it might be drawn. For instance, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic uses a distinction between action and transition scenes, but transition scenes encompass elements of what 5e would classify as "adventuring" (especially but not only travel), and can involved resource management just as much as action scenes (the relevant resource being "plot points", which can be spent in either sort of scene to enhance outcomes).

Set a DC, roll some dice; or say yes. This can be applied to just about anything, no problem.

 

[Parmandur]

I would note that I have seen Matt Mercer, at least, do 4E style Skill challenges in 5E, broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people to watch. So it is quite easy to do in 5E, if desired. That last part is the stickler, though: not everyone desires that.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Garthanos]

Set a DC, roll some dice; or say yes. This can be applied to just about anything, no problem.

I think its a poor answer to many many questions and treats them as boolean, ie can I use acrobatics to move faster through difficult terrain... It's not an on off question how much and how reliably and so on.

I would note that I have seen Matt Mercer, at least, do 4E style Skill challenges in 5E, broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people to watch.

One can house rule any version of D&D? Not sure that says anything at all. Skill challenges are arguably 90 percent a DM facing tool.

Hmmm think we are repeating ourselves ... ok resistance attempt.

 

[Garthanos]

For that matter, when I see this discussion of 4e's skill challenges, I am reminded of the large number of people I have seen complain about 4e's skill challenges, or the many who didn't even realize that they existed (or how to properly utilize them). On the other hand, as you point out, others have incorporated the skill challenge into 5e.

Viva la difference.

Skill challenges are largely a DM facing structure and a tool that only applied some of the times so that some didnt realize they exist seems entirely reasonable and their flexibility is something which needs learned too.

 

[Garthanos]

Downtime does not need to mean less important or off camera. It is not as zoomed in

to me if the faces have gone all fuzzy its fairly acceptably off camera - LOL not sure what either of us mean by the phrase at this point.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes. This is precisely @Campbell's point. Skill challenges are more freeform than distinct subsystems for exploration, crafting etc - because the structure can be applied to a very wide range of non-combat situations, with the time involved being vary variable, the actions declared constrained only by player and GM sense of the genre/tropes and the fiction, and the resolutions being whatever the GM thinks (i) honours the successes and failures rolled and (ii) fits with the unfolding fiction.

This is an example where 4e is indeed more free form than 5e