D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Parmandur]

I'm not sure why you're talking about combat or fights. I didn't post an example of a fight; I posted an example of reforging a dwarven artefact.

I'm also not sure whether you are asserting or denying that 5e has a crafting resolution system.

If it is not a fight, exploration, or social interaction, then it is downtime, and downtime structures (of which there are multiple suggested approaches) would apply as judged neccessary by the DM.

There are crafting suggestions, but it is left to the DM to work in to taste.

 

[dave2008]

Fifth Edition has a formal resolution system. Players describe what their characters do and DM decides what happens is a formal resolution system. It is even broken up into steps in the very first part of the Player's Handbook. This has all sorts of implications on play.

First and foremost it means that we are at no point playing to find out what happens. It means that the DM must decide what happens and if something bad happens to a character it is because the DM decided it should. If a character triumphs it is because the DM decided they should. You can use checks and other rules to guide your decisions, but ultimately it is your decision to make. Meaningfully being a fan of the player characters and providing honest antagonism become difficult in an environment where you are responsible for determining outcomes.

That is not my experience with the game (5e). If something needs to be adjudicated beyond the rules provided we discuss it as a group. Note the decision and use that going forward (unless we later decide it was a bad idea and change it again). However, as DM I let the players and the dice drive the fiction. If they want to go north, we go north. If they want to do something that isn't specifically a "rule" I ask for a check and set the DC and their description and the dice determine the outcome.

I guess I could set crazy parameters for success and technically I "let" them do it things. I could take the dice and kick them out of my house, but I am pretty sure I can do that for any game. So I guess I am not getting what your selling. I fail to see how 5e is different than 1e or 4e (the other editions i have played).

 

[pemerton]

If it is not a fight, exploration, or social interaction, then it is downtime, and downtime structures (of which there are multiple suggested approaches) would apply as judged neccessary by the DM.

On the topic of freeform-ness: that doesn't look especially freeform. It looks like a fairly structured division of resolution systems by subject-matter.

That's not to say that it's good or bad. But I think it's a difference from 4e. And some other systems too.

 

[Parmandur]

On the topic of freeform-ness: that doesn't look especially freeform. It looks like a fairly structured division of resolution systems by subject-matter.

That's not to say that it's good or bad. But I think it's a difference from 4e. And some other systems too.

Structured, yes: again, the free-form statement has only ever been a direct comparison between 4E and 5E, and perhaps a better way to put the point might be to say that 5E is more ad hoc than 4E (though, again, only relatively).

 

[pemerton]

Structured, yes: again, the free-form statement has only ever been a direct comparison between 4E and 5E, and perhaps a better way to put the point might be to say that 5E is more ad hoc than 4E (though, again, only relatively).

For me, at least, ad hoc carries a different connotation from freeform and seems to fit better the accounts I'm reading in this thread.

 

[Parmandur]

For me, at least, ad hoc carries a different connotation from freeform and seems to fit better the accounts I'm reading in this thread.

Well, there ya go: when I say "free-form" and "ad hoc" I mean pretty much the same thing. And certainly 5E isn't a completely ad hoc system, but it gives the DM and players more freedom, in form, to get things done in comparison to 4E specifically.

 

[Imaro]

Semantics with a side of pedantry for the win!!!

 

[Garthanos]

Well, there ya go: when I say "free-form" and "ad hoc" I mean pretty much the same thing. And certainly 5E isn't a completely ad hoc system, but it gives the DM

Just the DM players are at the DMs mercy and the game is proud of it (its traditional)

 

[Parmandur]

Just the DM players are at the DMs mercy and the game is proud of it (its traditional)

If the players are "at the DM's mercy," then that is by definition a bad DM and a toxic environment. Rules won't help that.

 

[Garthanos]

If the players are "at the DM's mercy," then that is by definition a bad DM and a toxic environment. Rules won't help that.

Not intrinsically. The game encourages a functional totalitarian environment ... The king might be awesome or he might be the North Korean who claims superpowers and enforces with fear.

Or he might be just plain crappy at ruling on the fly without examples or guidelines to put it back in game context