D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Parmandur]

Only the options your dm allows "at-will"

Get a better DM?

 

[Garthanos]

Magic needs explicit options to limit it and martial needs explicit options to enable the extremes.

 

[Garthanos]

Get a better DM?

Why would a DM allow someone even the same amount of potency on something doable at-will as something doable behind a pay wall?

Its not about DM quality

 

[Ratskinner]

Ever had a DM ask for a series of swimming rolls guaranteeing a drowning process because you know he didnt know how to swim? I have nor is eyeballing the effect of multiple die rolls natural for most people.

This is what I think of when I think of DM improvising free from.

And in D&D land I think of "Just say NO" mentality being disguised because only magic can really do the extraordinary.

This, I think, bears some truth. (As well as a Dunning-Kruger effect going the other way.) To which I would say two things:

a) It ends up not mattering as much as we think, because playgroups tend to share mentalities/worldviews. (That is, if everyone at the table thinks it should take 5 rolls instead of 1 or 2...its irrelevant to their enjoyment.)* Additionally, it lets different tables play to different motifs ("superheroic" vs "grim", etc.)
a1) I would also recommend D&D drop the "auto-success" aspect of magic/spellcasting. This, I think, is the real mechanical source of the disparity.

b) I would advocate for D&D to adopt some of the newer "clock" tech from games like Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark (for non-combat activities, anyway.) At least, as I see it, the problem with the current D&D paradigm is more along the lines of a lack of negotiated clarity about what is at risk and what is to be gained from each roll. Since that negotiation is not a part of the default behavior of calling for skill checks.
b1) Yes, 4e Skill Challenges were a not-so-great implementation of such clocks.


*I am part of a group that used to regularly auger through wooden doors "quietly" to spy on the next dungeon room. Apparently nobody else in the group had ever hand-augered a standing door before I got there....."quiet" is not an applicable phrase...."large drumhead" is more apt.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Garthanos]

I can have a character improvise a ritual via a skill challenge context easily if 4e... in part because it has a cost. I can let it be more improvised.

 

[Parmandur]

This, I think, bears some truth. (As well as a Dunning-Kruger effect going the other way.) To which I would say two things:

a) It ends up not mattering as much as we think, because playgroups tend to share mentalities/worldviews. (That is, if everyone at the table thinks it should take 5 rolls instead of 1 or 2...its irrelevant to their enjoyment.)* Additionally, it lets different tables play to different motifs ("superheroic" vs "grim", etc.)
a1) I would also recommend D&D drop the "auto-success" aspect of magic/spellcasting. This, I think, is the real mechanical source of the disparity.

b) I would advocate for D&D to adopt some of the newer "clock" tech from games like Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark (for non-combat activities, anyway.) At least, as I see it, the problem with the current D&D paradigm is more along the lines of a lack of negotiated clarity about what is at risk and what is to be gained from each roll. Since that negotiation is not a part of the default behavior of calling for skill checks.
b1) Yes, 4e Skill Challenges were a not-so-great implementation of such clocks.


*I am part of a group that used to regularly auger through wooden doors "quietly" to spy on the next dungeon room. Apparently nobody else in the group had ever hand-augered a standing door before I got there....."quiet" is not an applicable phrase...."large drumhead" is more apt.

I personally love the Dungeon Crawl Classics implementation of spells (and Martial Stunting, for that matter). Skill checks that can cause serious, serious problems for the Caster and his friends.

 

[Garthanos]

So is it possible that maybe you just have a different view on this? That what you view as crippling (DM and player interaction and negotiation)

The game isnt giving the player any negotiation tools (resources) in 5e land that I can see.

I just noted about being able to allow a player to improvise a ritual in 4e - and that really that is enabled because of skill challenge mechanics and having cost mechanisms and a process for "group success".

 

[Parmandur]

I can have a character improvise a ritual via a skill challenge context easily if 4e... in part because it has a cost. I can let it be more improvised.

I'm glad that works for you, but that isn't necessarily a good structure for improvisation for everybody.

 

[Parmandur]

The game isnt giving the player any negotiation tools (resources) in 5e land that I can see.

I just noted about being able to allow a player to improvise a ritual in 4e - and that really that is enabled because of skill challenge mechanics and having cost mechanisms and a process for success.

Player: "I would like to X"

DM: "You can certainly try. DC 25 for Acrobatics."

Mechanical superstructure with a very mathematically streamlined process, right there.