D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Imaro]

I see where you are coming from. I disagree with pretty much everything you state, but thank you for the second example: it clears things up nicely as to your point of view.
/MoutonRustique out

I'm cool if you don't want to answer since it may just be an agree to disagree situation but what exactly doon't you agree with... I'm literally following the mechanics and play procedures of 5e. Is it that you don't agree with my application of said tools to get the result I want? Or something else?

 

[pemerton]

Here is a 4e example which illustrates the manner in which I see 4e as having freeform elements:

Another thing that had been planned for some time, by the player of the dwarf fighter-cleric, was to have his dwarven smiths reforge Whelm - a dwarven thrower warhammer artefact (originally from White Plume Mountain) - into Overwhelm, the same thing but as a morenkrad (the character is a two-hander specialist). And with this break from adventure he finally had he chance.

Again I adjudicated it as a complexity 1 (4 before 3) skill challenge. The fighter-cleric had succeeded at Dungeoneering (the closest in 4e to an engineering skill) and Diplomacy (to keep his dwarven artificers at the forge as the temperature and magical energies rise to unprecedented heights). The wizard had succeeded at Arcana (to keep the magical forces in check). But the fighter-cleric failed his Religion check - he was praying to Moradin to help with the process, but it wasn't enough. So he shoved his hands into the forge and held down the hammer with brute strength! (Successful Endurance against a Hard DC.) His hands were burned and scarred, but the dwarven smiths were finally able to grab the hammer head with their tongs, and then beat and pull it into its new shape.

The wizard then healed the dwarf PC with a Remove Affliction (using Fundamental Ice as the material component), and over the course of a few weeks the burns healed. (Had the Endurance check failed, things would have played out much the same, but I'd decided that the character would feel the pang of the burns again whenever he picked up Overwhelm.)

In running this particular challenge, I was the one who called for the Dungeoneering and Diplomacy checks. It was the players who initiated the other checks. In particular, the player of the dwarf PC realised that while his character is not an artificer, he is the toughtest dwarf around. This is what led him to say "I want to stick my hands into the forge and grab Whelm. Can I make an Endurance check for that?" An unexpected manoeuvre!

Similar to @Imaro's amphibious PC able to make a check to hold his/her breath for hours, so in this example the fiction that is established independent of stat/skill bonuses - namely, that this is a mid-paragon tier dwarven fighter/cleric who is the tougheset dwarf around - is integral to opening up the possibility of a skill check.

I'm not exactly sure how this should/would be handled in 5e, as 5e lacks the skill challenge framework and doesn't have quite the same tiers of play framework to support the establishment of the relevant fiction. But however exactly 5e should handle it, I don't see that it would be more freeform in terms of establishing what is possible and then setting a DC for it. I would expect it - based on a reading of the rules and a reading of this thread - to look pretty similar.

 

[Imaro]

Here is a 4e example which illustrates the manner in which I see 4e as having freeform elements:

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Similar to @Imaro's amphibious PC able to make a check to hold his/her breath for hours, so in this example the fiction that is established independent of stat/skill bonuses - namely, that this is a mid-paragon tier dwarven fighter/cleric who is the tougheset dwarf around - is integral to opening up the possibility of a skill check.

I'm not exactly sure how this should/would be handled in 5e, as 5e lacks the skill challenge framework and doesn't have quite the same tiers of play framework to support the establishment of the relevant fiction. But however exactly 5e should handle it, I don't see that it would be more freeform in terms of establishing what is possible and then setting a DC for it. I would expect it - based on a reading of the rules and a reading of this thread - to look pretty similar.

Question... if non-paragon characters were able to achieve the necessary DC's would you let them succeed at the same tasks?

One more question is there a formal way laid out in the rules that prohibits non-paragon PC's from achieving paragon feats? If so what is it? If it's just DC's well @Garthanos made the argument that it's very possible for low level PC's to get extremely high skill bonuses when built for it. Assuming that's the case how do you avoid the "creep" @Manbearcat was speaking too?

 

[Parmandur]

Here is a 4e example which illustrates the manner in which I see 4e as having freeform elements:

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​

Similar to @Imaro's amphibious PC able to make a check to hold his/her breath for hours, so in this example the fiction that is established independent of stat/skill bonuses - namely, that this is a mid-paragon tier dwarven fighter/cleric who is the tougheset dwarf around - is integral to opening up the possibility of a skill check.

I'm not exactly sure how this should/would be handled in 5e, as 5e lacks the skill challenge framework and doesn't have quite the same tiers of play framework to support the establishment of the relevant fiction. But however exactly 5e should handle it, I don't see that it would be more freeform in terms of establishing what is possible and then setting a DC for it. I would expect it - based on a reading of the rules and a reading of this thread - to look pretty similar.

Yes, it would look pretty similar: fewer rolls, possibly, but people do Skill challenges in 5E, if they feel like it. More free-form in terms of letting the DM adjudicate at will.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Imaro]

Yes, it would look pretty similar: fewer rolls, possibly, but people do Skill challenges in 5E, if they feel like it. More free-form in terms of letting the DM adjudicate at will.

Yep 5e just has less formal structure in general... which just goes to the point that many of us have been making about 5e. An individual DM could run a skill challenge (X successes before Y failures), make it a group check( More than half the party needs to succeed at their checks for the overall action to be a success) or even resolve it through freeform, judging purely by the actions taken that it does in fact succeed or it doesn't...

I do find it weird that half the proponents for 4e seem to be arguing that unlike 5e it's a tightly integrated ruleset with clearly defined parameters and this is a plus... while the other half seem to be claiming it's just as freeform as 5e and it's parameters are no more locked down than 5e...

 

[Garthanos]

Yep 5e just has less formal structure in general...

Fewer tools in my opinion ie there is no skill challenge for 5e that you can improvise knowing about it from elsewhere is still on you not the game. Its basically laying claim to a house rule something which any D&D has.

 

[Parmandur]

Fewer tools in my opinion ie there is no skill challenge for 5e that you can improvise knowing about it from elsewhere is still on you not the game. Its basically laying claim to a house rule something which any D&D has.

Fewer restrictions and assumed systems = more free in a formal sense.

 

[Garthanos]

Fewer restrictions and assumed systems = more free in a formal sense.

Skill challenges are big broad open tool... unlike spells which narrow it down. Rules light games have big open tools it makes it more like Fate to have those.

Emphasizing player agency is another thing the rules light and free form ones do.

We know there is a ton of locked down other rules influencing even the more free form elements so in that regard any distinctions we make wrt this is more free form is not huge. (your saying maybe 1 point worth at most) is probably solid

We argue about subtle naughty word here sometimes dont we

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*