D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Imaro]

4e doesn't cap out the game system at level 30, just PCs levels. There are level 35 monsters, for instance (they are all Gods or Primordials, but they exist). So it is quite possible to generate level 35 DCs, that would be considered a maximum challenge DC for a level 30 PC by DMG guidelines. Going by RC pp 126 and extrapolating the table to 35 (the RC table stops at 30) The highest DC in 4e is a 46. Even if you stop at 30 it is a 42. This means that 'god-like' feats of skill are entirely outside the realm of heroic, or even pretty much paragon tier characters. An extreme level 20 PC (paragon capstone) might hit some of these DCs with very high rolls. That seems pretty appropriate to me.

No it doesn't cap the "game system" at 30 but DC's for PC's are based on the level of the PC's unless specifically noted otherwise. So they effectively cap out at 30. Can you extrapolate and create higher DC's... sure (just as you can in 5e) but the rules (at least the latest ones in the RC) aren't based around a DM doing this and neither are the DC's in a skill challenge. As for taking the highest DC for a level 30 character... welll as has already been pointed out earlier... the same is true for the highest DC in 5e. And I'd disagree it's entirely outside the capability of paragon tier PC's as we've already shown even heroic tier PC's in 4e can accomplish easy to moderate epic tier DC's pretty easily with the right combination of skill/attribute/level/theme and so on.

I think the tier system itself also provides a strong basis for expectations in terms of 'color' when it comes to these sorts of tasks. Epic is clearly different from Paragon is clearly different from Heroic. 5e is a lot 'fuzzier' in that sense, and IME DMs don't seem to do a lot of re-imagining the scale of things at high levels. It just isn't clear to them at what point the game naturally transitions to a different 'mode of play'. AD&D was a bit stronger in this regard, there was a 'name level' transition. It wasn't hard and fast like in 4e, but it was definitely there (PCs getting followers and bases of operations was a big thing). Still, 4e is really the only system where things can very naturally 'go gonzo' and it is pretty clear where and how to manage that transition (though the lack of an Epic DMG is unhelpful here).

But that's all it is... expectations which any DM can choose to adhere to or not. It's a form of gatekeeping enforced solely by the DM and mechanically no different than the tiers 5e describes as default. The main difference I see is 5e spends time talking about how to subvert, change and mod these expectations... while most of 4e's advice is about how to adhere or enforce them.

 

[pemerton]

I have to say, you've gone a long way in encouraging me to taking a much deeper dive into PF2.

@Campbell's accounts of PF2 are the only serious ones I've seen. The hugely long "reviews" that were posted at release didn't talk meaningfully about any of this stuff that actually matters to game play.

 

[Campbell]

@pemerton

I think a lot of people have the tendency to get tripped up in comparative analysis where they look at an element of game in isolation and then apply it to the paradigms they are used to instead of trying to look at a given game on its own terms and taking a critical look at systems holistically and see if that's an experience you want to embrace. I think this is as true for the more positive reviews as well.

This was a big problem when Exalted 3rd Edition came out to the point that the community referred to it as Second Edition Thinking. The core combat system and social influence mechanics were redesigned from the ground up to lead to more tense and less binary results, but when viewed through the prism of old paradigms many game elements seemed to work in fundamentally different ways.

I do not think my analysis is perfect. I am still getting a handle on it. I have played in a couple organized play sessions, but I do not think I will really understand until I have a chance to run it for my home group which might not be until October.

 

[Garthanos]

@Campbell's accounts of PF2 are the only serious ones I've seen. The hugely long "reviews" that were posted at release didn't talk meaningfully about any of this stuff that actually matters to game play.

Most of them do seem to be bit fiddling reviews