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D&D 5E Where We've Been and Where We Might Be Going (or, What I Think WotC Is Doing)

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I agree 100% with this merging, plus I will never have to try and spell Phlogiston again, awful word, I can just say Astral Plane. There is already Githyanki and Mindflayers and I guess Astral Elves flying around in ships on the Astral Plane in 5e.

Plus why call them ASTRAL Elves if they hadn't ready decided to merge the Phlogiston (yuck) with the Astral Plane. Hell adding in the Blind Eternities while we're at it.
As a stand in for "Spelljamming Elves," same reason they obscured the Strixhaven batyre of the Owlin.
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
I agree 100% with this merging, plus I will never have to try and spell Phlogiston again, awful word, I can just say Astral Plane. There is already Githyanki and Mindflayers and I guess Astral Elves flying around in ships on the Astral Plane in 5e.

Plus why call them ASTRAL Elves if they hadn't ready decided to merge the Phlogiston (yuck) with the Astral Plane. Hell adding in the Blind Eternities while we're at it.
Most people shorten it to the Phlo or the Flow. It's not that hard to avoid spelling out Phlogiston.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yes, it's obviously easier than actually providing justification and reasons for previous misinformed posts. especially when I was simply asking questions like "Which important pieces ? How is it a mess ?"...

Mod Note:
When folks don't want to engage with you, the appropriate action is to politely let it drop - not make insulting potshots as they disengage.

If that level of civility isn't what you're up for right now, you may be excused from the discussion.
 




Glass Canon disagrees with you
The GCP is actually a good example, I think. I started listening to their original Giantslayer podcast, and couldn't really be hedgehogged past some time in the middle of book 2. Part of that was that the system took up too much space in each episode (not helped by the combat-heavy nature of Paizo's adventure paths and sometimes really mechanics-cheesy encounters, like the shadow rat swarm that stack being incorporeal (half damage from non-force effects, or none from non-magic attacks), total concealment (50% miss chance), swarm traits (half damage from slashing/piercing, dealing automatic damage to targets in the swarm) and Strength damage.

I mean, things are clearly working out for them, but a comparison of the premiere 5e Actual Play against the premiere Pathfinder Actual Play is definitely very strongly tilted in favor of 5e.
 




Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Its very simple RAW, there is only one prime, and spells like teleport will work the same way to any destination on the same plane, so RAW there is no distinction between worlds like Greyhawk and the FR, the book specifically say that they are all in the prime, you can therefore teleport from one to the other, they are connected.

You can implement things the way you want in your campaign (mine does not work that way because I implement Spelljammer and Planescape as designed a long time ago), but the rules are crystal clear.

I know. I just don't believe that Greyhawk and FR have to be physically connected for them both considered part of the MP, or have the spells not work. Nothing RAW contradicts this, IMO.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
1. Again, I don't disagree with the fact that Mind Flayers are important, what I think you are still not being clear about is the fact that the Phlogiston is a big part of Spelljammer. It has never been in the campaign that we've run, most of them being inside a few spheres, with the Phlogiston being used exactly like Hyperspace in Star Wars. It's a huge place with no interesting features and almost no chance of meeting someone. What can happen there are intrigues aboard one ship, and the special atmosphere makes things just different, but it's really a small part of the setting.



2. It fundamentally changes the nature of the planes like 4e did.



3. Hmm, for me it was a bit too much, but you can certainly do that in the space inside a crystal sphere, which is weird enough, you don't have to run the scene in the phlogistion where it is really like Hyperspace. The space between planets within a sphere is perfect for that and there is no phlogiston there.



4. You don't need to use the githyanki for that, there are lots of other very dangerous fleets without making the Githyankis one of them. Or you can if you want, I just think it wastes two of the primary githyankis specialities, there movement on the Astral Plane and Silver Swords....



5. Which does not preclude the other thing. What is interesting is the combination of the views, because there is also a difference between being physically in the Astral Plane and projecting oneself Astrally.



6. It's a combination of physical and spiritual, like everything on the Astral Plane, see above. By putting this on a purely physical realm, you are losing half the flavour of it.



7. I think you still have not understood the fact that the Phlogiston is only between Crystal Spheres, and that the Astral Plane is just a transitive plane to the spiritual ones of gods and alignments. Flattening all that into one loses one dimension in the game, which is a lessening of its wealth, for sure.

1. If phlogiston isn't a big part of Spelljammer, who cares if it gets cut?

2. Your response here seems to contradict your response to 1. Also, I disagree. Doesn't change much in my games to have the MP worlds connected through the Astral.

3. The space between spheres should be filled with combat; it's the trade routes between worlds, they should be raided by pirates. Combat should happen here!

4. Don't need to, but I want to. Plus, I merge phlo with Astral, so the Githyanki keep their Astral Plane advantages.

5. I agree. It can be both. It should be both.

6. I'm not doing that. I'm doing the reverse, but putting the phlo (the physical) into the Astral (more spiritual). I'm giving the Astral more flavor, by making it the connective tissue between the spiritual worlds and physical worlds.

7. No, I understand. I want to put the phlogiston in the Astral Plane. I don't care that it was on the MP in previous editions. The Astral Plane should be a transitive plane for the spiritual realms AND the physical realms. I think that gives the Astral more dimensions, not less. It would certainly be more wealthy, because think of all the increased trading the (/s)!
 



Lyxen

Great Old One
1. If phlogiston isn't a big part of Spelljammer, who cares if it gets cut?

Because it makes no sense if physical universes inside crystal spheres are suspended only in the Astral Plane ?

3. The space between spheres should be filled with combat; it's the trade routes between worlds, they should be raided by pirates. Combat should happen here!

It's exactly like real history piracy, it did not occur in the middle of the Atlantic where your chances to find another ship were null. It occured in the waters around the less protected destinations, which corresponds to in the crystal spheres near the trade points.

Once more, think Star Wars, space is big, it's huge, it's giganormous, even more than the Atlantic ocean.

4. Don't need to, but I want to. Plus, I merge phlo with Astral, so the Githyanki keep their Astral Plane advantages.

Which has exactly zero interest since, once more, you are not thinking at the right scale. If you make the Astral Plane physically as big as it needs to be to contain crystal spheres, it will no longer be an interesting place and the speed of the githyankis is pointless, whereas it matters very much in an area where people's speed is limited by their intellect.

In a sense, it's exactly like the rest of D&D, only several orders of magnitude bigger, don't insist for tactical combat on the world map.

5. I agree. It can be both. It should be both.

No, it makes no sense whatsoever. You should read a bit more about what they are before insisting that things should be the same.

6. I'm not doing that. I'm doing the reverse, but putting the phlo (the physical) into the Astral (more spiritual). I'm giving the Astral more flavor, by making it the connective tissue between the spiritual worlds and physical worlds.

See above, it would not work in particular because of size and relative speed, not even mentioning the type and feelings of the places.

7. No, I understand. I want to put the phlogiston in the Astral Plane. I don't care that it was on the MP in previous editions. The Astral Plane should be a transitive plane for the spiritual realms AND the physical realms. I think that gives the Astral more dimensions, not less. It would certainly be more wealthy, because think of all the increased trading the (/s)!

Well, your opinion is noted, but for me it provides only less fun and fewer possibilities than the original design, which worked very well. And if you can't cope with different transitive planes, hwo will you fare when someone resurrects the 10 dimensions of a Gygax multiverse ? ;)
 

glass

(he, him)
4e was extremely divisive, it rejected as many people as it included, and went through 2 editions in less time than 5e has existed, trying to market the same players with a somewhat revised version of the same game just like 3.5 did to 3 (which is one of the reason for them having about the same sales, which come absolutely nowhere near 5e sales by one order of magnitude, with the same edition and not needing a revision). Enough said about wild speculations and trying to beat a dead horse.
4e was 4e. A single edition definitionally cannot have "gone through two editions" in any space of time.

_
glass.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Because it makes no sense if physical universes inside crystal spheres are suspended only in the Astral Plane ?



It's exactly like real history piracy, it did not occur in the middle of the Atlantic where your chances to find another ship were null. It occured in the waters around the less protected destinations, which corresponds to in the crystal spheres near the trade points.

Once more, think Star Wars, space is big, it's huge, it's giganormous, even more than the Atlantic ocean.



Which has exactly zero interest since, once more, you are not thinking at the right scale. If you make the Astral Plane physically as big as it needs to be to contain crystal spheres, it will no longer be an interesting place and the speed of the githyankis is pointless, whereas it matters very much in an area where people's speed is limited by their intellect.

In a sense, it's exactly like the rest of D&D, only several orders of magnitude bigger, don't insist for tactical combat on the world map.



No, it makes no sense whatsoever. You should read a bit more about what they are before insisting that things should be the same.



See above, it would not work in particular because of size and relative speed, not even mentioning the type and feelings of the places.



Well, your opinion is noted, but for me it provides only less fun and fewer possibilities than the original design, which worked very well. And if you can't cope with different transitive planes, hwo will you fare when someone resurrects the 10 dimensions of a Gygax multiverse ? ;)

The arguments are getting circular here (we're just repeating ourselves), so I'm done. Also, if you want to argue with someone in good faith, don't recommend that they "should read a bit more about what they're insisting." I don't appreciate the rudeness frankly, when I've already explained my reasoning. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uninformed.

This is especially true for opinions on a fantasy world, where there is no objective truth or fact because... it's not actually real. It's all made up.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The arguments are getting circular here (we're just repeating ourselves), so I'm done. Also, if you want to argue with someone in good faith, don't recommend that they "should read a bit more about what they're insisting." I don't appreciate the rudeness frankly, when I've already explained my reasoning. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uninformed.

If it has to be a discussion rather than just flinging opinions that no one can discuss, it's better when one has arguments and knows what he is speaking about. Your perspective that there has to be some phlogiston in every spelljammer combat as well as some of the ideas that you have about githyankis in particular show that there are pans of the published lore that you are not familiar with, and to have an encompassing discussion, it might be interesting for you to have knowledge of them, so as to understand why some people have different opinions than yours. Because your opinions seem to disregards some of that lore that others find really interesting to keep around, rather than being discarded by people who don't even know about it.

This is especially true for opinions on a fantasy world, where there is no objective truth or fact because... it's not actually real. It's all made up.

And on the other hand, like everyone here, you base yourself on publications and you even quote them now and then. This is an objective truth, facts about the fantasy world have been published, and we can discuss around these at least.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
4e was 4e. A single edition definitionally cannot have "gone through two editions" in any space of time.

And yet, I think that you perfectly understood what I meant, especially since it was much clearer in the following sentences.
 

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