D&D 5E where you're going to die in CoS (spoilers)

[evilbob]

in many cases the adventure doesn't actually give concrete reasons for the denizens to do what they do. It's left open for the individual DMs to decide.

I know! It's both super fun because it's so open-ended and also maybe it would have been nice to include a few other ideas. Some justifications are particularly bad ("they all went insane and killed each other because reasons, the end"). Others are better because they imply some very bad things (like the Watcher's dad and the dolls made for Izek) but sort of leave it up to the group to see how far they want to go.

What is unfortunate though... is that the adventure does (like almost all adventures do) have certain places where a room has a monster listed in it, and it's narrative is "When the PCs enter the room, the creature attacks." Which I think in this adventure in particular... is a poor cycle to get DMs thinking about.

YUP. That's the vampire spawn encounter, and why I listed it as one of the top 2 places your entire party will absolutely die. The silver dragon place is another great example, like you said - fighting not only isn't helpful, it's counter-productive to the RP!

Forget the bottom of Death House, ... The spectre Life Drained one of the Rogues to death in one hit and left the Paladin making Death Saves.

The spectre at level 1 is no joke, it's true - any hit is an instant kill against any creature with 10 or fewer HP, which is about half the classes at level 1. Two hits is insta-death for any level 1 character. (And it can't even be turned, since any cleric would not be level 2 yet.) Thus my disclaimer that this was not an exhaustive list. I was only going by general CR / capabilities, but if the CR of a creature was within 1 or 2 of the typical party level, I didn't even add it to the list. But you're right: this is a "show up and it attacks" situation where one successful roll can kill a PC, which is something that might not be fun / something to look out for. I'll put that in the list as well.

Edit: That specter is worse than I thought. It has DR against non-magic weapons and effectively any type of damaging spell other than magic missile (giving it effectively 44 HP), it potentially kills the majority of PCs in one hit and ANY PC in two hits since you cannot heal the damage done by this thing if you fail your saves, and clerics can't turn it. And if the GM was being particularly nasty it would hit-and-run the party from the floor; it could attack and fly below the floor, then come up next round and attack (taking one OA is better than a full party to the face) and retreat again, etc. This wouldn't work for long (ready an action) but it would likely work long enough for someone to buy it. Your only saving grace is the low +4 to hit and the low DC 10 to save against the perma-drain.

 

[evilbob]

(Derailing the thread just a little...)

But that's... the barest minimum of a reason. "To sow corruption." For what purpose? What does it gain them? Why do they care? How does this "corruption" manifest? Do they even see this "corruption"? Is grinding the children's bones the only way they can sow corruption? Are there other things they can do? Do they care enough about sowing corruption that they'll continue to make dream pastries even when warned/threatened not to? Can they be convinced NOT to take children and kill them to make dream pastries? If the denizens of Barovia can be convinced to give up their addictions and NOT buy dream pastries, do the hags go out of business? Do they start selling them in Vallaki instead? Can they make pastries with some other type of bone? If people stop buying pastries and thus stop owing the hags money, do the hags steal children anyway? Are they compelled to take and kill children? If so, why? If not, would they let already-taken children go? Can they be convinced that steal children is unnecessary? Can they get denizens who have stopped eating pastries to start eating them again? Do they even bother trying to do that?

Here's another unique wrinkle: I'm using my suggestion from this thread to replace the dead kids in Death House with live ones. This brings up a whole new angle: technically the windmill is theirs. They even have documentation to prove it! I'm not sure a neutral evil creature would care ("finders keepers" and all) but it should definitely make the encounter even weirder. (I'll also change the children in the cages to adults, which might give less urgency to the situation...)

 

[Agamon]

(Derailing the thread just a little...)Here's another unique wrinkle: I'm using my suggestion from this thread to replace the dead kids in Death House with live ones. This brings up a whole new angle: technically the windmill is theirs. They even have documentation to prove it! I'm not sure a neutral evil creature would care ("finders keepers" and all) but it should definitely make the encounter even weirder. (I'll also change the children in the cages to adults, which might give less urgency to the situation...)

Wouldn't that just increase the chances for a game-ending fight at the windmill?

 

[Koren]

(Derailing the thread just a little...)Here's another unique wrinkle: I'm using my suggestion from this thread to replace the dead kids in Death House with live ones. This brings up a whole new angle: technically the windmill is theirs. They even have documentation to prove it! I'm not sure a neutral evil creature would care ("finders keepers" and all) but it should definitely make the encounter even weirder. (I'll also change the children in the cages to adults, which might give less urgency to the situation...)

I'm doing the same thing with the Death House kids so may have the exact same problem. The more I think about the hag coven, the more I think even changing them to green hags isn't going to do much to fix the encounter. I think I'm going to potentially solve the early TPK problem by having the party encounter the hags on the road (in disguise) while they're traveling to the windmill or Vallaki (if they go there first). Nice neutral ground, and even a coven of hags isn't going to be outright aggressive against an unknown, untested adventuring party that outnumbers them two to one. No sign of children's bones or

The hags will be on their way to visit one of the other power groups (either Baba Lysaga or the Druids) for reasons unknown, and if one or more members of the party manage to stealthily trail them, they can learn a little bit about some of the other things going on in Barovia. Of course, if they're caught, getting turned into a frog and left to survive in the wilderness for an hour is about the right level of punishment for spying on a trio of old ladies (and should provide enough warning that they are likely a major threat.

If the characters mention the deed or windmill, then the hags play up the whole "destitute old ladies trying to make a living off their pastries" thing. Rose, if she's with my group, will say she doesn't mind letting the old ladies stay there (they'd likely die of old age before the kids are old enough to do anything with the place). Thorn in my game is Rose's mute twin sister, so she won't have any input, but I may have Rose imply that it's Thorn's idea (up the creep factor a bit). It delays the inevitable confrontation, and when I run the Dream Pastries event at later at a more level-appropriate time, and the whole plot is revealed, the characters can wonder how many more innocents might have died because they let the hags stay there.

Alternately, replace some of the spells on the coven list with higher level illusions and assume that before Morgantha opens the door, she lays down some covering glamours over the worst of the evidence. The kids in cages are blackbirds, the bones and stuff is hidden, etc. It's more in flavor for a Hansel & Gretel-like plot thread, and should add some depth to what's really a little side-trek if the party has suspicions something's wrong but needs to investigate deeper before having justification to go all righteous vengeance on the hags.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm fixing the problem with Death House by re-introducing Lysaga Hill as a location, and having it be an old garden shrine with a set of standing stones that match the megaliths at Old Bonegrinder and the menhirs outside of Berez. And this garden will be overseen by a single green hag in old woman form, acting as the groundskeeper of this garden shrine. This shrine will be what all the iconography and the deed in Death House head towards rather than the windmill (thus making the area little bit easier for the PCs to deal with at the level they probably will.

Since I'm reintroducing the fanes concept from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (of which this garden shrine is one), rather than Baba Zelenna (the hag here) trying to summon the demon Chernovog... I'm going to have her (plus some Barovian Witches) trying to summon the archfey Queen of Air & Darkness instead. Then to help tie it all together, I'm having the cult in Death House having been worshipping the QoA&D as well (rather than Strahd). It'll help explain why the evil creature in the basement is a shambling mound, and it'll set up a nice battle between those in Barovia who follow Strahd, and those who follow the archfey. I really liked the "Brook No Rival" secondary Strahd plotline from Expedition and am hoping to incorporate it (especially because I presume one of my players will perhaps pick up the Warlock class with archfey patron if it's made available to them.

 

[evilbob]

I think I'm going to potentially solve the early TPK problem by having the party encounter the hags on the road (in disguise) while they're traveling to the windmill or Vallaki (if they go there first).
...
Of course, if they're caught, getting turned into a frog and left to survive in the wilderness for an hour is about the right level of punishment for spying on a trio of old ladies (and should provide enough warning that they are likely a major threat.

I like both these ideas; "getting turned into a frog" instead of a TPK is also a great way to end that encounter. And kicking the can down the road a bit, level-wise, can only help.

 

[evilbob]

Another idea: the hag finger they find in Death House is actually the leader's and she's willing to trade her current stock to get it back. It doesn't solve the problem but it does delay it for a while, and is perhaps a bit more morally palatable.

 

[Remathilis]

So, I have a problem with the finale of Death House. Effectively, there are three ending: Destroy the shambling mound (which ends the haunting), sacrifice a PC (the group leaves, house remains) or outrun the SM and escape (group leaves, house remains). Now, knowing my group, the fact that there is two creepy children luring travelers to their doom isn't going to stand. Nor is anyone going to sacrifice (willingly or unwillingly) a PC to leave. So this puts them in a TPK with a CR 5 creature they can't beat.

I'm considering changing the monster to something a little closer to their CR, but dangerous enough to give them the option to run. Right now, I'm thinking a mummy (CR 3) is a good mix of slow and deadly, but beatable if they engage it smartly. It also fits the general tone of of the house. If they defeat the mummy (which I expect they'll engage with), I was considering doing the "death house doesn't let you escape" as a load-bearing boss routine ("This house is crumbling, we must escape!") more for flavor than anything else (making the houses actions a bit less deadly, but no less dangerous).

Similarly, I'm considering replacing the night hags with green hags; I see no benefit to using night hags in an area that is marked as being for level 4 PCs.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Heh. I got a TPK in the bottom of Death House!

The players shouldn't be surprised though. After all, they were adventuring in DEATH house. It lived up to its name as expected.

 

[Koren]

So, I have a problem with the finale of Death House. Effectively, there are three ending: Destroy the shambling mound (which ends the haunting), sacrifice a PC (the group leaves, house remains) or outrun the SM and escape (group leaves, house remains). Now, knowing my group, the fact that there is two creepy children luring travelers to their doom isn't going to stand. Nor is anyone going to sacrifice (willingly or unwillingly) a PC to leave. So this puts them in a TPK with a CR 5 creature they can't beat.

I'm considering changing the monster to something a little closer to their CR, but dangerous enough to give them the option to run. Right now, I'm thinking a mummy (CR 3) is a good mix of slow and deadly, but beatable if they engage it smartly. It also fits the general tone of of the house. If they defeat the mummy (which I expect they'll engage with), I was considering doing the "death house doesn't let you escape" as a load-bearing boss routine ("This house is crumbling, we must escape!") more for flavor than anything else (making the houses actions a bit less deadly, but no less dangerous).

Similarly, I'm considering replacing the night hags with green hags; I see no benefit to using night hags in an area that is marked as being for level 4 PCs.

I like the mummy idea, another very dangerous but less up front deadly. There's a good chance anyone infected with rotting fist won't be able to get to a remove curse in time, though, as it's a 3rd level spell and that's 2 more levels of adventuring after Death House. You could give them to means to cast it a few times in some of the treasure in the house, though, scrolls and such.

We covered the Shambling Mound to death in some of the other CoS threads Those of us who are running the game at tables with lots of new players are changing it with something a little less deadly to level 2s after hearing of others' TPKs.

I'm using a gibbering mouther, which potentially locks down half of the party on any given round, but has no resistances, only one condition immunity, and a lot less health. One or two characters will likely go down due to its high damage bite, but no-one is likely to be killed outright (unless by a confused, raging party member), and the fight should be over before death saves become an issue. Others are going with something more in the undead/diabolist theme (and changing the grick encounter too).

Green hags for the night hag are a good idea. Even a coven of them is overkill against level 3s-4s. Other ways of rebalancing include changing up the coven spell list for a list containing more illusions/utility and less straight up murder-the-party, and that way the hags aren't just leaving children's bones out in the open for characters to spot on casual observation when they make a house call. Make them do their Scooby Doo work while the hags aren't at home if they're suspicious, and/or de-emphasize/put off Dream Biscuits until after they've got a couple of more levels. I'm moving the Dream Biscuits encounter to Vallaki so that it's less obvious that they are hags to a party that goes to the Old Bonegrinder because of the deed in Death House.

Give them opportunities to learn about hags' weaknesses and the power of covens so they can design a strategy to break the coven quickly. Maybe a book in Death House or a friendly NPC who has fought covens of hags before (Ezmerelda or van Richten?). Hags are intelligent monsters capable of complex plots and possessing self-preservation instincts. As powerful as those coven spells are, the hags shouldn't be too quick to engage a party of adventurers that outnumbers them when they can disguise themselves and their environment. Just a lonely old woman with her two spinster daughters. Nothing to see here.