Which 11 feats would you pick for a 1st level character if ... ?

[Edena_of_Neith]

Request: For the feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, could you list them?
I have many of the books, and have memorized some of the feats outside of the PHB, but obviously not all of them! I could use your help here. (And, some of the feats you are referring to, I've never heard of before.)

Cheers to you guys. This is great stuff. Keep it up!

Of course, we know very well that in 3rd Edition (and in Pathfinder) nobody allowed so many feats for characters. Heck, we are talking 3 to 6 times (general 6 times) the normal feat allowance, AND a huge starting package of 11 feats (plus drawback feats!) on top of that. We know that no DMs allowed this.

So this is a sort of What If. What If 3rd Edition had been so generous with feats? What if we had started with these feat 'packages' of 11 feats.

We all know that, by the time a character gets up to high level, he's going really kick some monsters around. That's generally a given.
Now, you can - if you min/max - create a character who can kick monsters around at 1st level.
OR ... you can create a more well rounded character (assuming you interpret feats thusly) with a selection of general feats (the '+2 feats' as it were, and the 'penalty' feats, plus more specialized feats.)

Many feats are still out of reach, because they are level based, BAB based, or otherwise require something you can't have at 1st level, but there's still a lot you can take. You can't have it all (not even with all these feats) but you can have enough to stand out. To customize heavily.

Again, for the feats not from the Player's Handbook, could you give me the source? I don't know where some of these feats are coming from, so I can't figure out the 'picture' you are drawing here. Help me to do so. : )

And, feel free to go further indepth as to what you just created. Show how the feats work with the character to accomplish what you are trying to do, if you would? Could you do that? It would be very good reading!

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

For example, I was thinking of the Rohirrim (and the real life Mongols) who could shoot arrows from a running horse. Now, I would *not* call that an easy thing to do, especially if the rider is in armor!
Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?
How could we create a character like that, using the 11 feats?

Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:

- Alertness (anyone riding a horse at high speed would need this, since horseback riding is so dangerous, both to the rider and horse. Charging around on horseback is almost suicidally dangerous, even when you are not wearing armor and fighting.)
- Endurance (this is a *fighter.* He is expected to go the distance. And as a horseback rider, he's had to intensively practice this exhaustive skill.)
- Iron Will (again, this is a *fighter.* He's trained to endure hardship, pain, to fight while in pain, to take care of his horse under duress, etc.)
- Lightning Reflexes (if he's going to be firing arrows, holding onto his horse only with his legs, you'd expect this guy to be trained with his reflexes. And things happen fast in combat, when you are galloping around on a horse. Of course he needs trained reflexes, even if his reflexes were normally fast.)

- Blind-Fight (this is not about fighting in the 'dark.' It is about fighting in the chaos of an all out melee. Visibility isn't exactly good when you are caught in the midst of a melee. Being on horseback helps, but what if it's cloudy? Raining? Snowing? Sunset or sunrise? Smoky? Partial cover for the enemy or he's hiding in cover himself? And if he's thrown off his horse, visibility is greatly restricted when several people are towering over him, blocking out the light, trying to smite him. In the film, the Rohirrim attacked at night.)
- Expertise (he must have this feat to have Shot on the Run, below)
- Improved Initiative (this is a result of trained reflexes. If he's so trained he can fire arrows from a galloping horse, he should be trained enough to react quickly in combat.)
- Dodge (this penalty feat accrues as a result of his combat training.)

That's 10 feats, so far. He only has 1 feat left. Not enough. I'll have to give him the 2 drawbacks (for 6 more feats) so he'll have enough feats for what I'm trying to create.
So now, he has 7 more feats to choose from.

- Mounted Combat (he has the ride skill, and now he can protect his horse - hopefully.)
- Mounted Archery (obviously)
- Trample (if the Rohirrim could do it, why not our fighter?)
- Point Blank Shot (he's going to need it. He still has all those penalties.)
- Precise Shot (also something he's going to need in the thick of combat.)
- Shot on the Run (this gives him that Rohirrim-type ability. He can now fire from the moving horse, free to move and fire, fire and move, or move-fire-more.)
- Weapon Focus, Short Bow (obviously.)

There's a stab at the concept.

 

[Celebrim]

For example, I was thinking of the Rohirrim (and the real life Mongols) who could shoot arrows from a running horse. Now, I would *not* call that an easy thing to do, especially if the rider is in armor!
Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?
How could we create a character like that, using the 11 feats?

Interesting. That gives me some context I'm better able to relate to. Quite frequently I find myself thinking, "How would you do a Macedonian phalanx/Roman Legionnaire/Polish Hussar/Scythian Peltast/ect. using the 3e rules set". I tend to want to run a low level campaign world where being 4th level is pretty significant, and sometimes its not easy to really capture the flavor you want with a limited number of feats.

So, for example, if want to capture a Mogul horse warrior.

"Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:"

The first thing I would look into is a skill booster like Skill Focus (Ride).

Then he'd need Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery.

At that point, I'm actually pretty happy. We have a 1st level human mounted archer that feels reasonably skillful at his job. With dexterity 13, 4 ranks in ride, a skill focus (+3 by a common house rule), and a nice heirloom saddle (like this) he's got +10 bonus to ride. That let's him do any kind of common ride action with virtually no risk of failure, and he's pretty darn good at stunts as well. Despite being 1st level, he rides probably as well or better than the heroes until they've obtained a fairly high level.

Guiding the mount with his knees is DC 5. He never fails under ordinary circumstances.

Per page 138 of the 3.0 PH, I don't need an extra feat to split move and fire, so I don't have to even go for 'Ride By Attack' or anything of the sort. Since I don't have facings in 3rd edition, turning around in the saddle to fire behind you is simply a flavor enhancer.

And everything else from that point is gravy. At 2nd level, he'd probably add Skill Apptitude (Ride and Tactics). 'Skill Apptitude' is a homebrew feat that collects all of those '+2 to two different skills' feats together into a single feat (because it is elegant to do so and prevents taking more than one such feat that applies to the same skill). Tactics is a homebrew skill that represents formal military training (although as of yet, I have no mounted uses for the skill, which makes me think I should). Together with now 5 ranks in Ride, and 5 ranks in Handle animal, his Ride skill now goes up to +15 at 2nd level. He's now capable of doing quite heroic feats of skill in the saddle.

At 3rd level, he'd probably pick up Endurance. His ride skill now goes to +16.

At 4th level, I'd probably specialize a bit - half would pick up 'Ride by Attack' and specialize at close combat, and the other half would pick up 'Weapon Focus (Shortbow)' and specialized at ranged combat. Dexterity would go up to 14, and ride skill would improve to +18. Since 4th level is the highest level ordinary NPC's in my campaign usually obtain, that's as far as I'd probably take it.

So the question is, am I completely happy? At 4th level he has 6 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Endurance, Skill Aptitude, and Weapon Focus (Shortbow).

The answer is mostly, but not quite. First, I'd really want to push that Endurance skill down to 1st level, but I've already filled up my first level slots with essential feats. Secondly, more subtlely, all the above characters are legal as created, but there is no actual way for a '1st level Mongol' to become a legal '2nd level Mongol' because 'Skill Aptitude' is not a fighter bonus feat and couldn't be picked up at 2nd level. If I bump 'Skill Aptitude' down to the 1st level human bonus feat, then 1st level Mongul warrior loses 'Mounted Archery' and hense couldn't hit the broad side of a barn until 2nd level. Lastly, by the book, I've already used up all or most of the character's skill points on ride and handle animal, so he doesn't have many or any skill points for handy things like craft, jump, tactics, or survival. I could partially address this by going with some other class than fighter, but then I'd loose the bonus feats I need to capture the character's fighting style (and in the case of tactics, only fighters have it as a class skill).

So while I don't feel the need for 8 additional feats, like you've suggested, I often feel slightly cramped by just having 2-3.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Of course, we know very well that in 3rd Edition (and in Pathfinder) nobody allowed so many feats for characters. Heck, we are talking 3 to 6 times (general 6 times) the normal feat allowance, AND a huge starting package of 11 feats (plus drawback feats!) on top of that. We know that no DMs allowed this.

So this is a sort of What If. What If 3rd Edition had been so generous with feats? What if we had started with these feat 'packages' of 11 feats.

I think it would feel like a "Monte Haul" game got enshrined in the rules.

However...

Given settings like DarkSun & 3PP RPGs like Midnight where life at low levels can be positively lethal, so they beef up the characters (starting at 3rd lvl in DarkSun, Heroic Paths in Midnight) I could see an interim solution of adding a couple of extra feats.

For instance, using the game as is, but giving each 1st level PC (and not NPCs) a 1 time bonus of 2-3 feats (in addition to whatever their classes grant) would make them seem truly heroic, improve low-level survivability, and wouldn't be too unbalancing. Limiting this bonus to PCs only would mean the PCs retain a slight edge over NPCs throughout their careers. That 1st level Barbarian could start off with the first 3 feats in the Power Attack tree. A Ranger could start off being an effective archer.

Heck, an Elven Wizard could start off being an effective archer...and could focus on rays and orbs right away and be dangerous as well.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Celebrim

Celebrim, can you expand on your homebrew feats? The ones you mentioned above?

(genuinely embarrassed look)

I didn't quite understand everything you wrote. Can you expound and clarify?
I mean, your homebrew feats sound neat. And you accomplished a lot with them (obviously.) I just wanted to take a closer look at what you did in your combat.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

(EDIT: (sheepish look) I never said I was an expert at 3rd Edition. I'm not. I was always a novice, even at my best.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think it would feel like a "Monte Haul" game got enshrined in the rules.

Of course, it would be Monte Haul. That's a given.
It's only a What If. We'd never actually have a game with so many feats. It's just a theoretical What If ... that's why I denoted it as a 'candy store giveaway' type of situation.

It seems Celebrim has figured out how, using a few (very reasonable sounding) house feats, and using the skills rules, to create the same thing without a lot of feats. I just didn't clearly understand how he did it ... I asked him to expound more on his house feats and house skill rules. I am interested in his and his group's conceptualizations, here.

 

[Celebrim]

Edena: I'm not exactly sure how I was unclear. However, this is the homebrew feat I mentioned. It's pretty straight forward, and should look pretty familiar.

Skill Aptitude (General)
You have a natural advantage that makes you especially suited for two particular skills.
Benefit: Choose two skills that you can logically connect in some fashion to your character's background or experiences. You gain a +2 bonus in all skill checks with those skills. Some examples:

Acrobatic: +2 bonus on all Jump checks and Tumble checks.
Agile: +2 bonus on all Balance checks and Escape Artist checks.
Animal Affinity: +2 bonus on all Handle Animal checks and Ride checks.
Arcane Expert: +2 on Knowledge(Arcana). +2 on Use Magic Device.
Artist: +2 on Perform. +2 on a single Craft skill that involves art.
Atheletic: +2 bonus on all Climb checks and Swim checks
Born to Intrigue: +2 to Sense Motive. +2 to Innuendo.
Cat Burglar: +2 on Balance. +2 on Climb.
Charlatan: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Disguise.
Cunning: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Pick Pocket.
Deceitful: +2 bonus on all Disguise checks and Forgery checks.
Deft Hands: +2 bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks and Use Rope checks
Diligent: +2 bonus on all Appraise checks and Decipher Script checks.
Eye for Detail: +2 on Appraise. +2 on Search.
Fast Talker: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Diplomacy.
Flair: +2 aptitude bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
Investigator: +2 bonus on all Gather Information checks and Search checks
Low Key: +2 on Disguise. +2 on Hide.
Keen Vision: +2 on Search. +2 on Spot.
Magical Talent: +2 on Spellcraft. +2 on Knowledge(Arcana).
Negotiator: +2 bonus on all Diplomacy checks and Sense Motive checks
Nimble Fingers: +2 bonus on all Disable Device checks and Open Lock checks.
Persuasive: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Intimidate.
Self-sufficient: +2 bonus on all Heal checks and Survival checks
Stealthy: +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks

Special: You may gain take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to two different skills. Its effects do not stack.
Note: This feat replaces all feats which normally provide unnamed bonuses to multiple skills.

The only other homebrew thing I mentioned was a homebrew skill, "Tactics", which is a class skill for fighters and can be taken cross class by other classes. It doesn't really effect the build for the Mongol Warrior, but I feel its appropriate given the high degree of tactical coordination displayed by the Horde. They were generally much better organized than their foes, and generally relied on not just mobility, but superior command and control and unit discipline to defeat larger or better armed forces.

TACTICS (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Tactics is the skill, knowledge, and understanding of how to fight and particularly how to work with others in battle. Tactics are used to direct the movement of troops in battle, to correctly assess the tactical value of terrain, and to move in battle formation.
Check: Close Formation (DC 10): Three medium sized creatures can engage in melee along a 10’ wide front without squeezing penalties, provided that all three succeed in this check. If any of the creatures are size small, all gain a +2 circumstance bonus on this check. If all the creatures are size small, they all gain a +4 circumstance bonus.
Phalanx (DC 10): If you use a range weapon to attack an opponent on the other side of an ally, the opponent does not gain partial cover from the ally provided both you and the ally make this check.
Assess Opponent (DC 15): As a free action, once per round, you can gain a single piece of information about an opponent who is engaged in combat – whether or not they have a particular feat, advantage, or disadvantage, whether or not they have an available attack of opportunity, or what stance they are currently fighting in (aggressive, defensive, full defense, or normal). You may ask only one question per round of combat, and you will only receive a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ response.
Assess Terrain (DC 15): As a free action, once per round, you can gain full details about the terrain of any 5’ square you can observe clearly. For example, you will know the balance DC of passing through the square, whether it is difficult terrain, what degree of cover or concealment it provides, and whether it offers in circumstance bonuses or penalties to combat with respect to other squares. If you make this check as a full round action, you gain similar information about every 5’ square you can clearly observe.
Fight in Ranks (DC 15): If you have a range weapon, and an adjacent ally is directly between you and your target, then you may treat your attack as if it originated from your ally’s square, provided both you and the ally succeed in this check.
Form a Shield Wall (DC 15): You may add your base shield bonus to the base shield bonus of any adjacent ally, provided that they have a shield, are not flanked, and succeed in this check as well.
Improve Cover (DC 20): If you have cover, you may at your option treat it as one higher step of cover.
Prevent Flanking (DC 20): As long as you are not also flanked, you can negate the flanking penalty against any single adjacent ally.
Tight Formation (DC 25): Two medium sized characters can engage in melee along a 5’ wide front without squeezing penalties, provided that both succeed in this check. If either of the creatures are size small, they gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. If both of the creatures are size small, they both gain a +4 circumstance bonus on the check.
Flank from adjacent square (DC 25): For the purpose of flanking an adjacent opponent, you may consider your character to occupy any unoccupied square you are adjacent to.
Enhance Initiative (DC 25): If you were prepared at the beginning of combat, you gain a +2 bonus to your initiative.
On Guard (DC 35): If you would be surprised, you may become prepared instead of flat-footed.
Enhance Group Initiative (DC 35): If every ally was prepared at the beginning of combat, they all gain a +2 bonus to initiative provided they were under your direction.
Special: You have a +2 synergy bonus when using this skill to Assess Opponent if you have at least 5 ranks in Sense Motive. You have a +2 synergy bonus when using this skill to Assess Terrain if you have at least 5 ranks in Survival.

It's not what I'd consider well play tested, but only in the sense that I don't like how it can add bunch of dice thrown to each round in the worst case. At higher levels though, anyone who is trying to go the 'warlord' route would automatically succeed at most common checks. I'd consider dropping the DC's of some checks just to accomplish that quicker.

None of that though would seem to clarify my post.

So, to clarify my post, I was drawing a contrast between the 17 feats that you felt created the image of a Rhohirrim, and the six or so that I felt were necessary (assuming of course we let the Riders of Rohan be more than 1st level fighters). My 1st level mounted archer has Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery as feats. This lets him move and fire effectively. He also has a +10 bonus to Ride from Skill Focus (Ride), a combat saddle, +1 Dex bonus, and 4 ranks in ride. It's only DC 5 to control a mount with your knees in order to fire an arrow, so our archer never fails at that or at fighting with his warhorse, and indeed can usually (75%) hang off the side of his horse to provide himself cover when fighting. So he's good at what he does, even without any bonus feats, and can accomplish that trick from the movie of turning around in the saddle and shooting behind the horse without a problem.

The 11 feats aren't necessary.

But, on the other hand, I agree that he feels just a little bit cramped, as if he didn't quite fit the whole image of a nomadic tribal horse warrior. Ideally, a couple of other feats would make him feel more well-rounded without feeling 'Monty Haulish'. Where I'm going with this is, "Ok, 11 feats at first level might be more than a bit excessive, but is 1 feat at first level (and possibly 1-2 bonus feats depending on class and race) too strict. Can we make up examples of fairly low level fighters that do seem to need something to do what they do?"

One of the reasons for bringing up the Tactics skill, is often I think 3rd edition had a flaw of mistaking a common skill or ordinary manuever that you ought to be able to use even untrained (if not well), for a feat or feat tree. If you'll notice, the Tactics skill lets heavy infantry - like a Macedonian Phalanx - do alot of what heavy infantry do without recourse to needing to front load a bunch of feats. In other words, maybe the boys from Sparta didn't have 11 feats, they just all had a skill focus in Tactics that let them work together very well.

 

[Celebrim]

Edena: Just to clarify.

Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?

But as I've shown, a fighter that focuses in mounted archery can do that at 1st level.

Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:

Four ranks in ride, certainly, but as I've shown, I can get by with 13 Dex, and even that is gravy.

Alertness (anyone riding a horse at high speed would need this, since horseback riding is so dangerous, both to the rider and horse. Charging around on horseback is almost suicidally dangerous, even when you are not wearing armor and fighting.)

I think here you are confusing the idea of a particular skill, riding a horse, with the qualities that make you an excellent horseman. Strictly speaking, all I need to ride a horse in D&D is a high ride skill bonus. Remember, these are the same riders that ride right past the three hunters without seeing them. There spot skill check is probably pretty good, but it isn't especially good. Maybe some of the riders have 'Alterness', but it doesn't have to be ubiquitous.

Endurance (this is a *fighter.* He is expected to go the distance. And as a horseback rider, he's had to intensively practice this exhaustive skill.)

Generally, I agree.

Iron Will (again, this is a *fighter.* He's trained to endure hardship, pain, to fight while in pain, to take care of his horse under duress, etc.)

I sort of agree in as much as I think military training imposes a certain mental discipline, but exactly what form it takes, I'm not sure. It would be nice if the concentration skill let you do mentally arduous tasks, but I've never figured out exactly what game effect that would have. Also, I'm inclined to think that what military discipline does can't be quite simulated without importing fear and horror rules into core D&D.

Lightning Reflexes (if he's going to be firing arrows, holding onto his horse only with his legs, you'd expect this guy to be trained with his reflexes. And things happen fast in combat, when you are galloping around on a horse. Of course he needs trained reflexes, even if his reflexes were normally fast.)

I don't agree. This is just gravy, especially since you've already assumed high dexterity. He's already got better reflexes than average.

Blind-Fight (this is not about fighting in the 'dark.' It is about fighting in the chaos of an all out melee. Visibility isn't exactly good when you are caught in the midst of a melee. Being on horseback helps, but what if it's cloudy? Raining? Snowing? Sunset or sunrise? Smoky? Partial cover for the enemy or he's hiding in cover himself? And if he's thrown off his horse, visibility is greatly restricted when several people are towering over him, blocking out the light, trying to smite him. In the film, the Rohirrim attacked at night.)

I agree, but only because the Orcs in the books are greatly impressed with the Rohirrim's night vision. So apparantly, training in fighting in the dark is part of the package for the Riders of Rohan. However, from the text, part of this seemed to be a particular sensitivity to their horses emotions, that let them use as it were the horses nose and ears almost as well as their own. Again, I'm not entirely sure how best to implement this.

Expertise (he must have this feat to have Shot on the Run, below)

Doesn't need 'Shot on the Run', so doesn't need Expertise. Under the rules, a horse archer can already move - fire - move, without a feat.

Improved Initiative (this is a result of trained reflexes. If he's so trained he can fire arrows from a galloping horse, he should be trained enough to react quickly in combat.)

Again, gravy. You've already assigned a high dexterity, so their initiative is already higher than normal.

Dodge (this penalty feat accrues as a result of his combat training.)

Doesn't need dodge. He can use his Ride skill to accomplish more dramatic defensive actions.

That's 10 feats, so far. He only has 1 feat left. Not enough. I'll have to give him the 2 drawbacks (for 6 more feats) so he'll have enough feats for what I'm trying to create.

So far, I've used 3 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Endurance, and Blind-Fighting. So far, he's just a 1st level fighter. All he needs now to become a skilled horse archer is Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery. He can get those as a 3rd level fighter. Sure, he can load up on other feats to become a better horse archer, but he now has enough to do the job compentently. Is anything missing? Maybe, but it's not 12 feats worth of stuff. If anything, it's skill points, which a fighter is pretty desparately short on.

What interests me in these conversations is whether we can say, "Ok, I want to create a Spartan Phalanx, but I want to do it as fighters of 4th level or lower. Can I do it under the rules or is something missing?" If you can't do it, it suggests to me that we really do need more feats at low levels. I'm pretty sure though that it would never be 17.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Request: For the feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, could you list them?

Most of my books are in storage while I do a renovation, but I'll edit my previous posts as best I can- all errors are my own.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thank you both (Dannyalcatraz, Celebrim.)

Celebrim, I like the Skill Aptitude Feat and the Tactics Skill. I think those were really well done, nicely thought out.