Which Campaign Setting has the best fluff? Why?

[fredramsey]

EDIT - let's lay off the personal insults, please. - Henry

 

[Kanegrundar]

Settings are all biased toward certain playstyles, and Eberron is biased toward, at best, severly crunchy severely tactical full-use-of-the-battlemat-and-the-$14.95-miniatures-booster-pack D&D. At worst, it is oriented toward the total munchkinfest "my-warforged-juggernaut-is-bigger-than-your-warforged-juggernaut" powergaming extravaganza.

No, that would be Dawnforge. I've read Eberron cover to cover, and nowhere did I get the feel of the world being a munchkin's paradise. That is just absurd.

And in either case, the fluff in it all exists not for its own sake, not because it was a dream in its authors mind for years before it became a published setting, not because of socio-political rationality, but only to justify the crunch. What socio-political rationality exists is only constructed after the fact.

Socio-political rationality?!?! I thought we were talking about a fantasy world here. A place filled with all manner of things that are beyond reality. The setting is more than coherent in and of itself. Sure, to a sociologist, it may not all fit exactly together, but what setting really does? Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms? This just sounds like sour grapes.

Eberron's fluff is all pre-fab. It was done by committee to allow maximum crunch to satisfy a target demographic.

Eberron is at best the Monkees of the D&D world.
At worst, Eberron is the Milli-Vanilli of the D&D world.


Nisarg

Try reading Eberron first with non-evious eyes before passing off such judgements. True. Eberron is being targeted at the largest possible demographic. They want a world in which you can use any D&D product. That makes complete sense to me. They are a business after all.

As far as all the fluff being pre-fab or not. It sparks my imagination just fine. It doesn't matter if the setting was just made or has been played for 30 years. As long as the writing and ideas presented are interesting, that's all that matters to me.

Kane

 

[Gez]

And no, I don't consider it a virtue to go alphabetically down the list of the Monster Manual and think up flimsy excuses for why each and every one of them should be included in your game world, just to "maximize" the use of the MM.

Can you tell me which page of the ECS is this walkthrough, again? I'd be interested in reading it.

Eberron, on the other hand, was designed by taking a few basic ideas by the author (who apparently said the right catchphrases in the one-page description in the contest.. words like "includes every monster")

When was the Eberron One-Pager published? Can you post it? I'd like to read it.

The only Eberron material I have read is the main book and a few glances at the Sharn sourcebook.

Oh. So you haven't read that one-pager you claimed to know the content of, then? What a disappointment. I thought you were typing out of your hands... Still, that's an amazing butt cheek dexterity you are exhibiting here.

I would be very interested to see Keith Baker's refutation of the charges made against Eberron, since I suspect most of those charges to be irrefutable; but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

OK, for a start, no subraces with different racial ability scores. Contrarily to the non-powergaming Forgotten Realms, whose setting book opens with pages and pages of elves with +2 Int and elves with +2 Str and no Con penalty.

By the way, aren't subraces in the Monster Manual? Then I guess that not everything from the Monster Manual has been included, heh?

Seriously, stop typing out of your arse. It's not hygienic. What if other people must use your keyboard?

 

[Nisarg]

Socio-political rationality?!?! I thought we were talking about a fantasy world here. A place filled with all manner of things that are beyond reality. The setting is more than coherent in and of itself. Sure, to a sociologist, it may not all fit exactly together, but what setting really does? Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms? This just sounds like sour grapes.

You know what was great about Watchmen, the comic series? Well, every damn thing about it was great, but what I liked most?

It was the first comic series to show what the actual EFFECTS of a super-powered being would be on society.

In every other comic, Superman and the Hulk and the gang are running around there causing all sorts of mayhem and neither their effects nor the mere fact of their existence have affected the world at all. The world of Superman or Spiderman is our world, where ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IS DIFFERENT other than the addition of superheros (and a couple of made-up cities).

In Watchmen, Alan Moore rightly points out that if even ONE truly superpower being existed, it would throw all of western civilization into an existential crisis the likes of which would make the post-atomic age pale by comparison.

Now, what does any of this have to do with Eberron?

Simple: you accuse me of having sour grapes? Hell yes, I have sour grapes, but not the way you might think. I didn't submit a setting in the contest or something like that.
When I heard about what Eberron would be about, I was filled with hope that it was going to be a setting that had the kind of ubiquitous magic that you see in many fantasy settings, but that it (unlike these other fantasy settings) would actually explore the CONSEQUENCES of that ubiquitous magic. This is what I mean by socio-political rationality: that a medieval society that suddenly invents a railroad that runs of lightning bolts and has a magic-powered version of New York City (or coruscant) as its capital will not just keep being medieval in EVERY OTHER RESPECT.
It will have a massive existencial crisis on par with the crisis that the presence of Dr. Manhattan causes western civilization to have in Watchmen.

But instead of watchmen we get comic-standard. So setting wise, Eberron is a flop.

And I look at that situation, and ask myself why is that so? And upon examination, you find that everything in the setting is there not for its own sake but to maximize the potential for the crunch.

The lightning rail is not there so that we can question what the consequences of the lightning rail would be on society. The lightning rail is there so we can say "TEH LIGHTNING RAIL IS TEH ROXXORS! MY WAREFORGED-JUGGERNAUT RIDES TEH LIGHTNING RAIL! W00T!"

And potentially, for the creation of the ultra-powerful new Lightningrail Powermaster prestige class, more powerful than any prestige class before it, coming soon in an upcoming Eberron sourcebook.

So yes, I have massive sour grapes. Eberron disappointed me in ways few products have of late. The other one which disappointed me was Blackmoor, for a somewhat related reason. Blackmoor had all the potential to be what Eberron didn't measure up to, and examine a fantasy world facing industrialization. Unfortunately, whereas Eberron whitewashed, Blackmoor chickened out, and the technology was shafted for some power crystals.

All of which is why I'm very curious about Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if it will actually do with the industrial what Eberron and Blackmoor failed miserably at; namely look at the industrialization for its fluff potential as a source of social crisis?

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

This, at least, I know is false, and it would seem to prove my suspicion that you've not paid any mind to Keith Baker. It is an easily destroyed allegation that can be disproved by reading the Dragonshards articles, or just about any of Mr. Baker's posts.

Its not a suspicion, I confirmed it several posts ago. I have never read the "dragonshard articles" and indeed have no idea what they consist of or where they can be found.

Now, if you like, you could send me a link. If you like.

Nisarg

 

[Henry]

If ever really wanted to get out the battlemat and pay $20 for my official D&D miniatures (TM) and wanted to create a Golem PC and play in a setting that lets my inner powergamer go wild, Eberron might just be it.

Speaking from the position of having run a nine-month long Eberron campaign, I believe that the reality of Eberron is far different from your perceptions of it.

There's nothing that screams powergamer about the character classes or races present in Eberron that are not present anywhere else. Having actually DMed a party with a Kalashtar, a Shifter, a Changeling AND a Warforged, none of these had any undue advantage over any other character, much less the humans or elves of the party, or even the half-elves (who people often claim underpowered). The "golem" abilities touted by dtractors of the setting were no more powerful than anything else, especially when netted against the disadvantages of the race, and the fact that the Warforged LIVED or DIED by the Artificer in the group. He stayed closer to that Artificer than a cub on a mama bear.

Artificers, yet another strong complaint from detractors, are definitely balanced against true casters - they are heavily dependant on down-time and money, more so than any other class, and their abilities to use magic items do not work somewhere around 20 to 30 percent of the time, even min-maxxed to the fullest. (One word of caution - DO NOT ALLOW UMD-Boosting items for an artificer, or this no longer holds true. ) Artificers make an innovative and fun class to add to a game, DEFINITELY a good "fifth wheel" in the way a bard does - but by no means could they stand alone nor could they survive without the strength of other party members.

But setting wise, Eberron has an identity crisis. It doesn't know if its medieval or industrial or post-industrial. Its medieval kingdoms make no sense in the context of the "tech" available and the massive changes that such a thing would create.

Again I must disagree - Eberron is not medieval or industrial or post-industrial - it is 3.5. It models very well a society raised in the presence of 0th - 3rd level magics, with only rare instances of major powerful magics left over from days past. Its 'magic trains', airships, and other tropes that many find distasteful I found liberating to run an adventure I could not have run in the realms without making the characters extremely powerful. I ran continent-spanning adventures, fights in unique locales, mysteries in areas I have never run in the Realms or anywhere else. Does this mean other elements do not creep in, a la pulp-fantasy train-fights, traipses through jungles a la Stanley & Livingston, etc.? Of course they do, but they do so in other settings as well, as all faithful Greyhawkers, Spelljammers, and Faerunians know.

I'm sorry you feel this way Eberron's posibilities, and if it's not for you, then so be it - but there are tens or hundreds of thousands of folks out there who are playing Eberron in every fashion imaginable from gritty to over-the-top powergamery, and your perception isn't changing their reality.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Each to their own, Nisarg. I for one couldn't care less if the book set up some sort of "social crisis." That's for me, as the DM, to enter into the game. Eberron is simply a game. I, and I dare say most that play D&D or RPG's in general, don't give a damn about social or economic ramifications. As long as it doesn't suffer from the sort of blatant "what the heck?" factor that parts of Rifts had I can forget about it and play the game. (Like societies that have trade routes, but know nothing of the other culture.) Eberron is simply a backdrop and jumping-off point to which campaigns can be ran off of. It does that just fine, IMO. I studied sociology enough in college to not want it thick through my games.

As for the power-gaming factor...uh, yeah. I don't really see the massive "this roxxors" attitude that you keep talking about. Warforged may seem over-powered to some, I thought the same this at first, but once they are in play they are no worse than your common, everyday, dwarf. The presitge classes are no different than those found in other sourcebooks (both WotC and not), so I just don't see where you're getting this idea.

Kane

 

[Henry]

Dragonshard Articles - www.wizards.com/eberron . Clicking on the most current article will give you links to the archives.

And I look at that situation, and ask myself why is that so? And upon examination, you find that everything in the setting is there not for its own sake but to maximize the potential for the crunch.

The lightning rail is not there so that we can question what the consequences of the lightning rail would be on society. The lightning rail is there so we can say "TEH LIGHTNING RAIL IS TEH ROXXORS! MY WAREFORGED-JUGGERNAUT RIDES TEH LIGHTNING RAIL! W00T!"

Ultimately the lightning rail is there to have fights on the cab-roofs of trains. Just like horses are in D&D for neat horse-chases. Getting from point A to point B is a side-effect. As a devotee of Gygax, I must say let's not forget why we're gaming, here.

 

[Desdichado]

But setting wise, Eberron has an identity crisis. It doesn't know if its medieval or industrial or post-industrial. Its medieval kingdoms make no sense in the context of the "tech" available and the massive changes that such a thing would create.

This is a valid observation on Eberron (albeit not one I agree with; I think the theme and tone are quite strong rather than all over the place, as you say.)

If ever really wanted to get out the battlemat and pay $20 for my official D&D miniatures (TM) and wanted to create a Golem PC and play in a setting that lets my inner powergamer go wild, Eberron might just be it. Though FR can do much the same.

This, however, is absolutely absurd, and shows a wilfull ignorance. It shows that you deliberately are avoiding actually learning anything about the setting, so you can bash it at your pleasure without the distraction of any actual facts that would contradict you.

The only Eberron material I have read is the main book and a few glances at the Sharn sourcebook.

And that is the reason for the absurdity quoted above. Although, frankly, from your description, I have to seriously question what you mean by the word "read" when you say, "The only Eberron material I have read is the main book," because usually by "read" we also mean "I've actually understood something that I read as well."

 

[Nisarg]

Dragonshard Articles - www.wizards.com/eberron . Clicking on the most current article will give you links to the archives.


Ultimately the lightning rail is there to have fights on the cab-roofs of trains. Just like horses are in D&D for neat horse-chases. Getting from point A to point B is a side-effect. As a devotee of Gygax, I must say let's not forget why we're gaming, here.

I am one of the foremost advocates of fun uber alles in rpgs. I have been banned from forums for my defence of that principle.

But you don't need to make it mindless fun either (unless mindless fun is the goal, like in Paranoia or Toon). If you actually made the setting express the social CONSEQUENCES of the existence of the lightning rail, that wouldn't stop you from having rocking battles on top of the trains. It would just mean that now the trains matter as an element of setting, and not an excuse for crunch or as a mere background prop.

thank you for the link.

Nisarg