Which character generator is best-E-tools or PCgen?

[TheAuldGrump]

It's amazing how long rumor can stir around, isn't it?

And for the record a few of the non WotC things that were removed are creeping slowly back in, including Spycraft. Mny were a bit buggy early on, and not all the companies and groups had given permission for the use of the data. The folks working on PCGen started making sure that permissions had been granted, and that the code was not too buggy. My one complaint is between permissions and debugging the number of datasets slowed from a raging torrent to a thin trickle. (People like creating datasets, they hate debugging.)

And WotC did not give the folks working on PCGen a whole lot of choice in the matter. It was charge money or not have them at all. And a whole lot of changes have taken place to PCGen since 2002, faster, less buggy, skins, GMGen being bundled with it..

The Auld Grump

 

[kingpaul]

Come on, Paul. You knew that when I said "every" d20 publisher, I was using hyperbole.

My apologies. People have accused us, and being serious, that we had sets for all publishers.

As for which bugs are still prevelent -- I admitted earlier in this thread that I no longer use PCGen (have switched to DM Genie), so I no longer keep up on the status of all the bugs. But some of the persistent bugs I can think of right now are:

Thanks for the list. I'm tracking down these now.

 

[3catcircus]

The PCGen team sat down with the WotC team at GenCon 2002. WotC informed PCGen that, by including the closed source books (splat books, FR material, etc), that we were violating WotC's copyright and IP. It was at that time that those datasets were removed.

CMP is a separate entity and is a licensee of WotC. As such, they have permission to create and distribute datasets for WotC's closed content books. They created their datasets from scratch and did not copy the work of others who had donated datasets.

As for Spycraft, there was licensing issues with that as well. AEG had received permission from WotC to utilize Class Defense and WP/VP. These items were not, then, open content. Because of that, these datasets were removed. Now that Unearthed Arcana (a mostsly OGC book) is out, those items are now OGC. As such, Spycraft is now back in PCGen.

Funny, considering I did a vast majority of those books back at the time, that I kept them up to date back at the time. I recall about 5 or 6 people that worked on various books back at the time other than myself, not dozens, PCGen has NEVER had dozens of data volunteers. However, as Paul explained, pulling the Wizards material then was at their request.

CMP was formed to try and get that information back into PCGen, sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but this bit of misinfornation is also about 2 years out of date.

As for Spycraft, CMP had nothing to do with Spycraft, other than offering to give it a hosting place because of licensing, so don't lay that at our door step.

Whatever you're problem is with CMP, please refrain from spreading misinformation. Unless you were at the meeting with Anthony Valterra back in 2002 at GenCon, you have no idea what occurred.

Now, to keep this on topic, we had for almost 9 months on our forums, a 'wish list area' for RPG Toolkit (What was formerly called the rewrite of e-Tools for lack of a better name)... This list included every pie-in-the-sky request people could dream up. We've taken that list, broken it down into 'Core program', 'Add-on', and 'not a chance' (Okay, we as GM's do NOT need to track the migratory patterns of animals during the seasons in a program automatically or GPS positioning of characters on a map - cool as those are, that's just insane. ).

The big things for the core are (generalizing);
1. Correctness (math & rules implementation)
2. Flexibility
3. Fully functioning Editors


We're focusing on those 3 areas for RPG Toolkit... With the years of PCGen Coding, fixing e-Tools, the licensing factor with Wizards, and just the amount of anal retentiveness in our gaming/coding experience, doing things from the ground up (as opposed to inheriting someone else's work), not as an Open Source project (i.e. 1 vision/direction, not 30), we'll be able to address these core issues in a very direct, concise manner.

Do we expect that RPG Toolkit will be right for everyone? Nope. Someone will always find fault with a program, that's just the way it is. But our desire is that we will build the character generator that most people have wanted since 3.0 was released, and that's all we can aim for, pleasing as many people as possible, instead of trying to please all people and failing.

Ok - I combined my response to both of your comments.

First - perception is reality. If I had the perception of the situation that PCGen and CMP are in, then I bet a lot of other (former) users of the software have a similar perception.

It is easy to say "we made them from scratch" - however - how much of that "from scratch" was cut-n-paste and how much was fat-finger all over again? That is the question that I think people have in regards to "we did it from scratch" because it makes them think they aren't getting value for their money when deciding whether to purchase a dataset.

While "dozens" may be an embellishment, the fact is that the data *was* entered and was workable up through 2.73 (bugs within PCGen itself notwithstanding). Luckily, I installed 3.0 in a separate directory and saw that the data files were removed from 3.0+. CMP trying to recapture the data, while a great idea, is too little too late (at least for me) to keep me loyal - I've glanced at PCGen up through the current rev, but I think it rather arrogant on the part of CMP and the PCGen developers to give people (or at least me) the impression "All that data you had already? Well, now it won't work properly unless you make major changes, by hand, to the .lst files. We've got this new version of PCGen - its better than ever, oh, and, CMP will *sell* you data sets for the latest rev, but they aren't ready for sale, and when they *do* sell them, they might not be complete." I wouldn't expect to get stuff for free, but full backwards-compatibility for pre-CMP datasets should have been maintained. Sorry - but PCGen is dead to me.

Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame. While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well. Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc. The only problem will be the Excel "Open Files" limit issue. As far as expandability - if I ever got off my butt and inspected the formulae in the spreadsheets (along with judicious use of email with the author(s)), I'm certain that it would be much easier to implement new data than trying to build a .lst file or modify existing .lst files.

Now - as far as RPG Toolkit: If it does the following, I'd consider taking a look at purchasing it --

1. Accurate Math
2. *FULL* and *COMPLETE* implementation of every single WoTC and/orPaizo-published D&D product, including that contained in Dragon Magazine and also published on the Website.
3. Ease of use if I want to create new data.
4. Quality output - I want a character sheet that lists every possible variation of the stats that may be affected by character build choices (feats, 1-handed vs. 2-handed, etc.) and that lists good information on spells for spellcasters. As an example for the spell sheets, Steve's Spell Sheets are, AFAIAC, the gold standard.
5. Thorough beta testing - I won't pay to be your beta-tester.

As far as other capabilities - I couldn't care less about mapping or running campaigns or combats - there are other programs that do that better than PCGen or E-Tools does, and presumable that RPG Toolkit would be able to do. Stick to PC/NPC generation.

 

[kingpaul]

It is easy to say "we made them from scratch" - however - how much of that "from scratch" was cut-n-paste and how much was fat-finger all over again? That is the question that I think people have in regards to "we did it from scratch" because it makes them think they aren't getting value for their money when deciding whether to purchase a dataset.

The datasets were fat-fingered. CMP was accused early on its life of 'stealing' datasets from PCGen. This accusation has been around almost as long as CMP has been around.

While "dozens" may be an embellishment, the fact is that the data *was* entered and was workable up through 2.73 (bugs within PCGen itself notwithstanding).

Yes, it was entered. However, by WotC's PoV, it was done so illegally. That's why it was removed.

Luckily, I installed 3.0 in a separate directory and saw that the data files were removed from 3.0+. CMP trying to recapture the data, while a great idea, is too little too late (at least for me) to keep me loyal - I've glanced at PCGen up through the current rev, but I think it rather arrogant on the part of CMP and the PCGen developers to give people (or at least me) the impression "All that data you had already? Well, now it won't work properly unless you make major changes, by hand, to the .lst files. We've got this new version of PCGen - its better than ever, oh, and, CMP will *sell* you data sets for the latest rev, but they aren't ready for sale, and when they *do* sell them, they might not be complete." I wouldn't expect to get stuff for free, but full backwards-compatibility for pre-CMP datasets should have been maintained. Sorry - but PCGen is dead to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, there are Lst converters to attempt to bring older datasets forward. I can't recall how long they've been there. But, once again, because of WotC's stance on the closed-content datasets, support to bring them forward was not implemented. 2.7.3 dataset issue and current compatibility is an issue that has been brought up many times. Once again, I'm sorry that you feel as you do, but WotC dictated, as was their right as the IP owner, what was to be done.

Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame. While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well. Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc.

Would you mind expanding on these issues? I've heard complaints about accurate math wrt monster HD (which just got fixed). Is there anything else?

The data: once again, the sources you are citing are closed-content and PCGen does not have permission to distribute datasets based on those books.

Output: What output sheet issues do you have? That's one area that I don't hear many complaints in at all.

Now - as far as RPG Toolkit: If it does the following, I'd consider taking a look at purchasing it --

1. Accurate Math
2. *FULL* and *COMPLETE* implementation of every single WoTC and/or Paizo-published D&D product, including that contained in Dragon Magazine and also published on the Website.
3. Ease of use if I want to create new data.
4. Quality output - I want a character sheet that lists every possible variation of the stats that may be affected by character build choices (feats, 1-handed vs. 2-handed, etc.) and that lists good information on spells for spellcasters. As an example for the spell sheets, Steve's Spell Sheets are, AFAIAC, the gold standard.
5. Thorough beta testing - I won't pay to be your beta-tester.

I'm not an agent of CMP, but I'll try to speak on some of these issues.

Data: AFAIK, they will continue to be a licensee of WotC on the WotC non-licensed books (not SW, WoT, Cthulu, etc). Those licensed books will require licensing from the other parties involved (Lucas, Jordan, Chaosium respectively). For Paizo, I believe CMP is in talks with them...beyond that, I don't know.

Entering data: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on having the data developed by 2 methods. The raw data will be held in an SQLite database. Then, there will be, for lack of a better term, 'scripts' that will tell the program what to do with the data.

Output: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on building in a customizable output creator so the user can create their output sheet however they want to.

 

[frugal]

Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame. While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well. Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc.

You are aware that all of those spreadsheets are technically illegal aren't you?

You might get away with fair use in the US, but even then WoTC have a good case for a cease and desist. There are only 2 reasons that they have not done so: They would get no money and they would get lots of bad press.

I am sick of people complaining about the data sets for PCGen when it is the only character generator I have ever seen that actually follows the law.

 

[3catcircus]

You are aware that all of those spreadsheets are technically illegal aren't you?

You might get away with fair use in the US, but even then WoTC have a good case for a cease and desist. There are only 2 reasons that they have not done so: They would get no money and they would get lots of bad press.

I am sick of people complaining about the data sets for PCGen when it is the only character generator I have ever seen that actually follows the law.

Legality depends upon your location and/or copyright laws - I own every book that WoTC has published, so I'm pretty sure it *is* considered fair use for me to use an Excel-based chargen that I then can add data to after I buy a new book. If someone else has already done the work to enter that data - then great! Otherwise, I enter new data myself. Considering that I generally buy a new book the day it becomes available before I can *enter* new data, I have no moral qualms about using an Excel-based chargen. Currently, I'm entering data from Races of Stone.

I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh) and were published in a timely manner - how long has it been since Underdark, Complete Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms and Planar Handbook were published?

 

[3catcircus]

Would you mind expanding on these issues? I've heard complaints about accurate math wrt monster HD (which just got fixed). Is there anything else?

Yes - I'm still finding random errors in calculations of basic basic values (attack bonuses, skill synergy bonuses) - I assume it is probably an artifact from using the pre-PCGen3.0 .lst files run through the converter.

The data: once again, the sources you are citing are closed-content and PCGen does not have permission to distribute datasets based on those books.

So - CMP doesn't have a licensing agreement with WoTC that allows them to provide datasets as new books are published? Pardon my french, but if that is the case, it seems like a crappy licensing agreement. It would also lead me to speculate about the licensing agreement in whole - what kind of support will the end-user expect for older datasets?

Output: What output sheet issues do you have? That's one area that I don't hear many complaints in at all.

Well - I use primarily 2 chargens and a spell sheet generator. None of them provides *all* the data I would like by themselves (hence, I use all 3). PCGen has many varieties of output sheet, but, once again, it isn't perfect. It is a heck of a lot easier to manipulate an Excel sheet than it is to manipulate an XML-based output sheet.

I'm not an agent of CMP, but I'll try to speak on some of these issues.

Data: AFAIK, they will continue to be a licensee of WotC on the WotC non-licensed books (not SW, WoT, Cthulu, etc). Those licensed books will require licensing from the other parties involved (Lucas, Jordan, Chaosium respectively). For Paizo, I believe CMP is in talks with them...beyond that, I don't know.

Entering data: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on having the data developed by 2 methods. The raw data will be held in an SQLite database. Then, there will be, for lack of a better term, 'scripts' that will tell the program what to do with the data.

Output: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on building in a customizable output creator so the user can create their output sheet however they want to.

So - will this SQLite DB be *easy* to manipulate by a user? I want to be able to look at a data field and know what it is without needing a rosetta stone to decipher.

How will the output creator work? Will it be easy to use, or do I have to do a lot of work?

Here's the thing - if something is free, I have no problems tinkering with it to fix the mistakes and make it work the way I want it to.

On the other hand, if I'm paying money for it, I expect it to work (i.e. I'm not gonna do your beta-testing for you), and I expect it to be intuitively easy to manipulate.

 

[kingpaul]

Yes - I'm still finding random errors in calculations of basic basic values (attack bonuses, skill synergy bonuses) - I assume it is probably an artifact from using the pre-PCGen3.0 .lst files run through the converter.

That could very well be. There have been massive changes in the code and data structure since those days. Are these errors your speak of when you use only the datasets that ship with the program, or when working with your personal datasets?

So - CMP doesn't have a licensing agreement with WoTC that allows them to provide datasets as new books are published? Pardon my french, but if that is the case, it seems like a crappy licensing agreement. It would also lead me to speculate about the licensing agreement in whole - what kind of support will the end-user expect for older datasets?

As I said earlier, I'm not an agent of CMP. However, I know they are expecting to finish up the backlog by year's end and be completely caught up with existing product. From that point, I have no idea what the lag time (if any) will be between new product and dataset.

Well - I use primarily 2 chargens and a spell sheet generator. None of them provides *all* the data I would like by themselves (hence, I use all 3). PCGen has many varieties of output sheet, but, once again, it isn't perfect. It is a heck of a lot easier to manipulate an Excel sheet than it is to manipulate an XML-based output sheet.

What's your wish list for an output sheet?

So - will this SQLite DB be *easy* to manipulate by a user? I want to be able to look at a data field and know what it is without needing a rosetta stone to decipher.

From what I gathered from the Q&A, the db will just hold the data. Its the 'script' that will tell RPGT how to manipulate it.

How will the output creator work? Will it be easy to use, or do I have to do a lot of work?

They alluded to it being similar to the Core Rules 2.0 setup

Here's the thing - if something is free, I have no problems tinkering with it to fix the mistakes and make it work the way I want it to.

On the other hand, if I'm paying money for it, I expect it to work (i.e. I'm not gonna do your beta-testing for you), and I expect it to be intuitively easy to manipulate.

Forgive my bluntness, but have you ever had a software product that was perfect out the door?

PCGen is an open source product manned by volunteers. We take the feature requests and bug reports from our user base and place them in a tracking system on Source Forge.

As for eTools, CMP (remember, I'm not a CMP agent) inherited the codebase from Fluid and have been trying to fix it up ever since. WotC contracted them to fix, IIRC, 40 some bugs. They've fixed far more than that in the 1st patch, and have added functionality (templates for starters) and datasets that eTools as well.

 

[kingpaul]

Legality depends upon your location and/or copyright laws - I own every book that WoTC has published, so I'm pretty sure it *is* considered fair use for me to use an Excel-based chargen that I then can add data to after I buy a new book. If someone else has already done the work to enter that data - then great! Otherwise, I enter new data myself. Considering that I generally buy a new book the day it becomes available before I can *enter* new data, I have no moral qualms about using an Excel-based chargen. Currently, I'm entering data from Races of Stone.

What Frugal was alluding to (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) is the distribution of closed-content material. AFAIK, if you own the product, you can create something to make your life easier to use said data. However, since you aren't the IP owner, you can't distribute said material without the IP owner's permission. This is why PCGen was told by WotC to yank the pre-3.0 WotC sources...we didn't have their permission to distriubte them.

I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh) and were published in a timely manner - how long has it been since Underdark, Complete Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms and Planar Handbook were published?

Alright, those datasets are not distributed by PCGen, they are distributed by CMP. PCGen does not have a license with WotC to distribute their closed-content material. Now, as I said in the previous email, CMP is working on clearing out the back log. They are almost done on the 3.0 books, working on converting the 3.0 books to 3.5 and working on getting the current 3.5 books out the door.

 

[Mynex]

3catcircus - No one software is going to be the 'end all be all' for everyone out there. All the things you state you want in a program we plan on implementing for RPG Toolkit already, so the best thing I can say here is wait for it to be released next year and wait for reviews before deciding to purchase it.