Which class is the most useless?

[Tuzenbach]

Ah, here is, perhaps, a more difficult question to answer: What if (experience points aside) people used the 1E Bard and Monk instead of their 3E counterparts? Would this poll achieve the same result?

 

[airwalkrr]

Does this poll suggest that both the Bard and Monk need to be rewritten?

No, it suggests the monk needs to be re-written and that people are morons.

 

[Heathansson]

Bards do all the talkin, and monks can whoop ass when nobody has their equipment.

Fighters whoop ass the rest of the time.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Does this poll suggest that both the Bard and Monk need to be rewritten?

Monks need a rewrite. I think they need to be split into two classes; a base non-ki-using class (20 levels) and a 10-level ki-heavy PrC that builds upon the base class. In theory, a Martial Artist 10/Monk 10 would be balanced with a Martial Artist 20. That would be nice to see.

The unarmed combat rules would need to be rewritten plus the whole gamut of rules surround it (eg Improved Natural Attack), the Amulet of Mighty Fists should be renamed the Monk's Belt (and cost less, and be as full-enhanceable as a regular weapon, so a monk or martial artist could have a +4 frost Monk's Belt ... get rid of the old Monk's Belt) and of course that means it wouldn't be taking up the Periapt of Wisdom slot, and so forth.

It would need full BAB, more reasonable damage (eg no more than d6 or d8 base damage, because it's using its bare hands as weapons and the new Monk's Belt would mean it wouldn't need such cheese anyway, so it would be on-par with a dual-wielding light fighter, and other related rules changes). It would need less MAD, at least for the non-ki-using base class.

I'd like to see a little bit of the d20 Modern Martial Artist imported into it; I don't know how much could be transferred without making things ridiculous though.

But this may be a bit off-topic, right?

Bards need a tune-up or something; IMO, if the songs were beefed and rewritten, they'd be better. (I still hate how the defense song isn't available until like 15th-level ... a bard can't be a swordfighter without an OOTS-inspired PrC, not that said PrC is a bad thing.) I think it would be cool if the song gave the bard a double bonus (so +1 for the fighter, +2 for the bard).

 

[DragonLancer]

I voted none are useless... whether it's the most, the least or whatever. You just can't stick a label like that on any of the core classes because what may be a very ineffective class in one guy's game may be the most optimal and superior class in someone else's.

Thats my opinion too.

 

[BRP2]

In today's topic folks, we light each other on fire. Dig it!

 

[Victim]

It's all about Fascinate. The DC is based on your perform check, which is easy to get high into the stratosphere. Skill Focus, mw instrument, max ranks, high Cha, circlet of persuasion, cloak of cha, choker of eloquence. Admittedly, it doesn't work well on undead, constructs, and other similar creatures, but a few feats can fix that.

Completely core sample build: 6th level bard with 4th level bard cohort just for example.

(+6) 15 Cha base + 1 4th level boost + circlet of persuasion (only magic item)
+9 max ranks
+3 skill focus
+2 mw instrument
+2 inspire competence (from cohort)
Total = +22

Fascinate DC = d20 + 22
You find me a pair of creatures (since the bard could affect up to 2) you'd be fighting at 6th level that could come even close to making that saving throw reliably. And on top of that he can give them up to 5 suggestions with a DC of 16? The bard can grind every combat to a halt with a note from his lute. And it just gets worse at higher levels.

Which is highly depedent on how the DM the rules regarding " The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." An impending combat likely falls into the other dangers area. Plus anyone else even drawing a weapon automatically breaks the effect so your targets had better not have friends (even crappy ones) AND those in the bard's own party had better not mind sitting and waiting (can't buff, since casting anything ends the effect).

In other words, the reason fascinate has such a high DC (even without extras like skill focus, a skill based DC quickly outstrips conventional ones) is that it's not very good.

 

[Rokes]

I think somebody clicked the wrong box. Cleric has a vote? That's just insane. I mean sure if you're going to play a campaign that doesn't go past about 5th level fine, wands and potions will work. But at later levels when everything out there damages or drains your abilities, or causes all sorts of pain, who do you turn to? A Ranger or Paladin with a wand? Odds are that the Paladin only has 2 or 4 levels of Paladin anyway. If you want to play mid to high levels, a Cleric (or two) is required. Even a Druid with Spontaneous Healer isn't the same. Of course if you have one of those, chances are high that the Druid may be too busy kicking the crap out of everything else.

 

[tylermalan]

I voted Ranger. They just can't do anything, really.

Whoever voted Druid and Cleric...

I'm not surprised about the Bard hating, but I am surprised about the Monk hating. Caster-killer extraordinare is useless? Abilities that you can't just get from feats? I might agree with the idea of splitting it up and separating some of the abilities into different classes of PrCs, but only because the archetype doesn't really fit into the standard fantasy setting.

 

[Firebeetle]

Useless at what? I imagine most people are answering the question as "useless of a D&D character" since these are D&D classes on a D&D board. Without specifify something, anything, or providing a sample list of criteria this poll is kind of useless.

I used to work for Colorado's premier polling place, an adjunct of Colorado University and creator of the "Mind of Colorado" survey, often used in research. We also did the survey that led to CO gun control laws (the numbers for support were astonishing (this is an example, not an invitation to discuss the pros and cons of gun control, btw.))

Lack of criteria is very, very common in polls. Polls are about measuring opinions, which are vague. Criteria can get in the way. Common poll questions are:

In general, do you feel the governer is doing a good job or a poor job?

Is your community heading in the right direction, or the wrong direction?

I won't pretend this survey is scientific, but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable. If 400 posters out of 900 say something is useless, that's an indicator of a problem. The polls on ENWorld have a self-selected sample, BUT the numbers can get so big that they actually represent something significant. Scientific surveys are frequently done with half the numbers we get here on ENWorld.