Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Nail]

....I would put this monk up against a lv 10 Fighter any day....

<Jaw Drops>

You've got to be kidding me.

The Mnk 10 you've proposed has 49 hp, a 13 AC, and who's grapple check is +20. ...and for a score that's his main schtick, that's pretty darn low. The Mnk you've proposed would barely last a round against most EL 10 foes, not to mention the occasional EL 14.

Wow. Just: wow.

I see that once you're nailed down to real examples, your assertions about better AC than other classes, better damage per round than other classes, better options than other classes....it all just evaporates.......

I suggest you re-think your position.

 

[Enamel_32]

For those who feel a monk is weak, that is because it is weak when trying to play a main fighting role, like the fighter. It's a support class, really. One of the main advantages I find playing as a monk is that I don't need to spend my gold on weapons and [much] armor--it can go to magic items.

 

[Storm Raven]

For those who feel a monk is weak, that is because it is weak when trying to play a main fighting role, like the fighter. It's a support class, really. One of the main advantages I find playing as a monk is that I don't need to spend my gold on weapons and [much] armor--it can go to magic items.

Sure it can. But where does that get you? Your damage output is still low, you don't have offensive magical abilities, and most miscellaneous magic is expensive, especially compared to armor and weapons. That is why nailing things down to a concrete example (as IamIan attempted to do, and I have done) is so important. It hones down the myriad of "but I could do this" or "I could have that" arguments to something that can be fairly evaluated. It lets you evaluate what role such a character would fit in the party - for example, what role would IamIan's example monk play in a party that would not be better done by another character?

And I'm not seeing how a class that is designated a "support class" can fairly be described as "overpowered".

 

[Shin Okada]

For those who feel a monk is weak, that is because it is weak when trying to play a main fighting role, like the fighter. It's a support class, really. One of the main advantages I find playing as a monk is that I don't need to spend my gold on weapons and [much] armor--it can go to magic items.

I am curious what kind of magic items you buy and use. Usually, most monks buy ability score enhancing items, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor and such, or cannot survive. Some actually buy magic nunchaku or other monk weapons. Others buy Amulet of Mighty fists. In my experience, a monk need MORE money than usual fighter types to keep his AC in survivable level.

Also, if not fighting, what kind of support your monk is doing?

 

[Nail]

Also, if not fighting, what kind of support your monk is doing?

A key question.

In the case of the monk, that often means providing flanking. But in can also mean rushing to the aid of another character, or providing part of a "targeted" offence (Ex: Mage Killer). (In our group, the monk was heavily buffed by my cleric at the start of every day, including Greater Magic Weapon, Hero's Feast, Greater Status (BoED), Greater Luminous Armor (BoED), and Shield Other.)

In all of these cases, the monk is not "Over Powered"....which is the Topic of this thread. Moving on.........

 

[Storm Raven]

I am curious what kind of magic items you buy and use. Usually, most monks buy ability score enhancing items, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor and such, or cannot survive. Some actually buy magic nunchaku or other monk weapons. Others buy Amulet of Mighty fists. In my experience, a monk need MORE money than usual fighter types to keep his AC in survivable level.

Also, if not fighting, what kind of support your monk is doing?

The thing is, it is not that hard to do better with a monk than IamIan's example, which makes it sort of like shooting fish in a barrel dealing with him. Even a more well-developed monk still has problems - his lower BAB, weak hit points, and dependence on stats makes survival hard. As an example (24 point buy, 49,000 gp):

10th level Human Monk

Str 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Cha 8; Fort +10, Reflex +12, Will +12; Init +7; Move 60 feet; AC 23 (+3 Dex, +3 Wis, +2 monk, +2 ring, +3 armor); HD 10d8+10; HP 55; BAB +7/+2; Grapple +15; Attacks: unarmed strike +12/+12/+7 melee (1d10+5, bludgeoning, 20 x2), or quarterstaff +12/+12/+7 melee (1d6+4, bludgeoning, 20 x2), or shuriken +11/+11/+6 ranged (1d2+4, piercing, 20 x2, 10 feet x5), or light crossbow +11/+6 ranged (1d8, piercing, 19-20 x2, 80 feet x10); SQ improved evasion, still mind, ki strike (lawful, magic), slow fall 50 feet, purity of body, wholeness of body (20 points); Feats: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist; Skills: Balance +19, Escape Artist +17, Jump +20, Spot +16, Tumble +19, Use Rope +3 (+5 for checks involving bindings).

Equipment:

+2 Gloves of Dexterity - 4,000 gp
+1 Amulet of Mighty Fists - 6,000 gp
+4 Belt of Giant Strength - 16,000 gp
+2 Ring of Protection - 8,000 gp
+3 Bracers of Armor - 9,000 gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance - 4,000 gp

Masterwork Quarterstaff - 600 gp
Masterwork Shuriken (50) - 301 gp
Masterwork Light Crossbow - 335 gp

Gold remaining for sundry items (minor potions, mount, bolts, food, etc.) - 764 gp

So, what is the upshot? He's fast, that's certain. And he's fixed the atrocious AC of IamIan's example, and can make a lot of saves. But while he's improved on his hit points, he's still weak there, and his attacks, while better, are still lower than dedicated combatants. His unarmed attacks are nice (although no better than most melee weapons), but if he runs into something that makes those a bad idea, his other attacks are pretty weak. The amulet slot is crowded, he had to forego a +2 amulet of health or a +2 periapt of wisdom to get his amulet of mighty fists, and he doesn't have a monk's belt because that slot is needed for his belt of giant strength. His best maneuver is to try to get positional advantages with his speed and combination of Mobility, Spring Attack, and Tumbling. Unfortunately, once he gets there, he is probably going to get mauled pretty badly.

Is this monk a better party member than IamIan's example? Sure. Is he better than a comparable 10th level fighter? No.

 

[Thanee]

For those who feel a monk is weak, that is because it is weak when trying to play a main fighting role, like the fighter. It's a support class, really.

Well, it's better to have a monk around than noone at least (ok, not really, less XP that way --- j/k).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm beginning to be convinced that given his inability to work out the details concerning the various classes (like what fighters and clerics are good at, and the glaring weaknesses of the monk), that IamIan hasn't actually played these classes at mid- to high-levels. Sure, monks can look neat, and clerics can seem boring, but in actual action, monks get slapped around, and clerics are the mainstay of any party.

The actual numbers as shown in the various posts in this thread directly contradict his positions, and he seems unable to visualize why his "super powered" monk would have his head handed to him by most other characters, and most similar CR monsters, and why the monks "strengths" (such as they are) don't really contribute to a team of adventurers very much.

 

[Storm Raven]

I note that IamIan has failed to respond to any of the arguments made in this thread. I can only assume that he has been unable to make the numbers work the way he had imagined they would. Which is, of course, no surprise to anyone but him.

 

[pbd]

I note that IamIan has failed to respond to any of the arguments made in this thread. I can only assume that he has been unable to make the numbers work the way he had imagined they would. Which is, of course, no surprise to anyone but him.

Or maybe he's busy.