Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Elder-Basilisk]

....I just really dont see a whole lot wrong with the Druid. If people say the Cleric spell list is limited and not all that great, then the Druids is worse. Yea they have good damage...but direct damage generally isnt that great a shakes especially at mid and higher levels. They are good healers and buffers, good damage, very little utility,

I'm not quite sure which druid you're talking about here. Are these the druids who get:
0-Create water, detect magic, mending , light, purify food and drink
1-charm animal, detect snares and pits, endure elements, hide form animals, jump, longstrider, obscuring mist, pass without trace, speak with animals
2- animal messenger, ani-buffs, delay poison, fog cloud, gust of wind, reduce animal, lesser restoration, soften earth and stone spider climb, tree shape, warp wood, wood shape
3- contagion, daylight, diminish plants, dominate animal, plant growth, quench, remove disease, speak with plants, snare, sleet storm, wather breathing, stone shape, wind wall
4-air walk, control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement, rusting grasp, scrying (without an expensive and hard to carry focus)
5-Atonement, awaken, commune with nature, control winds, death ward, hallow, transmute rock to mud, transmute mud to rock, tree stride, wall of thorns
6- find the path, dispel magic greater, spellstaff, stone tell, liveoak, ironwood, transport via plants, wall of stone
7-animate plants, changestaff, control weather, greater scrying, transmute metal to wood, wind walk
8- animal shapes, repel metal or stone, reverse gravity, whirlwind, word of recall
9- antipathy, foresight, shambler, sympathy

What part of utility are they short on again? About the only thing they can't do is teleport or create a mordenkeinen's magnificent mansion.

and a lot of their stuff in general is limited in what it can affect or where it can be used etc. For instance, they can teleport...but only through plants of like kind.

Have you paid attention to what druids can actually do? A druid could very easily pick spells and play like a wizard:

Poison, daylight, protection form energy, flame strike, arc of lightning, ice storm, stoneskin, wall of fire, baleful polymorph, antilife shell, greater dispel magic, fire seeds, wall of stone, firestorm, sunbeam, creeping doom, finger of death, reverse gravity, sunburst, foresight, elemental swarm. Which spells on that list are limited in what they can effect or where they can work? There are a few druid spells that are limited like that, but most of them work just fine anywhere the druid happens to be.

Wildshape is a nice ability, but its not the combat monster many seem to think it is. the Druid still has medium BAB...he looses the use of most or all of his magic items (especially in terms of core), the ACs of the forms they can assume are really not that great...the Druid could probably achieve much the same with a deccent dex and his armor proffs, and most if not all of his buffs would stack with that. You get the strength and all that, and it is a nice combat buff, but I dont really see how a WSed Druid is going to replace the frontline fighters. And they have to spend a feat to cast in Wildshape, unlike the Cleric who can cast in his full plate for free.

I don't think you appreciate the versatility of wild shape. It's a disguise, a boost to hiding, a scouting technique, and many other things in addition to its combat utility. And the combat utility is not as much in getting good stats as it is getting special attacks. Most foes will be hard pressed to escape a 9th level druid's grapple in bown bear form, for instance. Pick the right form at the right time, and you don't have to be geared towards using wildshape for it to be dramatically effective.

 

[Nail]

I think it demonstrates that the posters you mention have become extremely tired of how non-core material keeps adding more unbalanced options to the already unbalanced in core cleric.

Heh. I'll agree with most of that statement, anyway. (Orb spells in Complete Arcane......shudder.......)

I think we've made some real headway by citing specific examples of "over-powerness" wrt the Clr. Some of the more interesting examples have been specific spell combos (let's drop Persistent X, as a persistent example brought up, O.K?), or even just a single spell in the Cleric's repetoire. You, for example, seem particularly troubled by Freedom of Movement. Could you describe the experience that led you to the conclusion that this spell is a problem?

Did you just read it thru once, or did some player pull a nasty while you were DMing?

 

[Thanee]

Divine metamagic gives them the ability to persist their buffs for the full day so once a day is enough?

However, this thread is about clerics in general, not broken feat combinations, and Persistent Divine Metamagic surely is one of those.

...clerics can get access so easily ... through Miracle...

Anyspell is extremely limited to Forgotten Realms clerics of Mystra (and others with the spell domain, Azuth and Savras, I think) only. So that's hardly a matter. Wizards can get pretty much all good cleric spells, too. Arcane Disciple, Planar Binding, Limited Wish, Craft Wondrous Item, Leadership. *shrug* My sorceress in our current campaign is the one who did the Resurrections and Restorations when our cleric was gone. But that's really not the point.

Again access for the cleric is but a wand or a spell away.

Yeah, I think rogues are the best spellcasters, anyways.

That bypasses even the domain restrictions.

And puts other limits on them, and then only gives them single spells, not dozens of them. I really don't see the point. Wizards get everything there, clerics can - through a costly choice (speaking of opportunity costs here) - get one, or two.

Again very easily avoided. Scrolls, domain sponteneity, pearls of power. It's not as if clerics sacrifice anything to take those feats. Those feats are good in an off themselves. It's far too cheap for clerics to get access to wiz/sorcs abilities.

Anyone can buy magic items or somesuch. Only sorcerers/wizards get the full package, however.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Wizards have no way to get constant, reliable access to Cleric spells...even a limited, constant reliable access. There are no core Wizard or Sorcerer class features, nor feats, that let them use spells from the Cleric list, even a single time per day, or that give them cart blanche ability to use scrolls and wands of cleric spells at will.

Planar Binding. Instant (well ok, not really instant) 13th level cleric at 12th+/11th+ level.

Great spell, BTW.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shadowdweller]

What part of utility are they short on again? About the only thing they can't do is teleport or create a mordenkeinen's magnificent mansion

The mansions, no.

As for the Teleport: Transport via Plants and Quaal's Feather Token: Tree is a pretty good approximation.

 

[Merlion]

This is the first time you've mentioned/clarified this intent of yours. Why is it surprising, therefore, that I "dont get it"? My mind-reading powers are weak when used through the keyboard

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up at least so...

You propose Clerics should have d# instead of d8 for hp. I point out that's not relevant in a rules discussion, but would be great material for a House Rules discussion

Why are we still having this problem then? What I am talking about is entirely relevent to this discussion, and has nothing whatever to do with "house rules". My "house rule" for Clerics is to remove them entirely and replace them with a different class because I honestly dont really care for them much in general even aside from their imbalances, and they dont fit very well in the kind of settings I run.

So what I am discussing is what are some ideas for making Clerics mechanically balanced in the rules as written


Nothing to do with house rules at all. But whatever if you dont wish to discuss that part of this conversation thats entirely up to you.

But when I play (rather than DM), I give her suggestions.....and suddenly her PC rocks the house. The change is dramatic. Usually all that's required is a list of useful spells and animal forms. Given the ease of the transformation.............

I'm not disputing that the Druid is a very powerful...probably slightly overpowered...class. I dispute those who say the Druid is even more powerful and unbalanced than the Cleric, because that isnt the case. Druids mostly just dont need the HP and saves that they get...Clerics have deeper problems.

I'm not quite sure which druid you're talking about here. Are these the druids who get; What part of utility are they short on again? About the only thing they can't do is teleport or create a mordenkeinen's magnificent mansion.

Ok first, I never said that they were not powerful and useful spellcasters. Next, several of the spells you mention arent utility spells, and several more are among those I mentioned that have limitations as to what they can effect and/or where they are effective.

Have you paid attention to what druids can actually do?

All you have to do is look at the spell list, which I have. Please try to b calm...I'm not saying Druids suck or that their spell list is terrible. But it is smaller and more limited than the other 9 level casters...which is why its ok for them to have most of the other things they have. Note I say most, not all.

Poison, daylight, protection form energy, flame strike, arc of lightning, ice storm, stoneskin, wall of fire, baleful polymorph, antilife shell, greater dispel magic, fire seeds, wall of stone, firestorm, sunbeam, creeping doom, finger of death, reverse gravity, sunburst, foresight, elemental swarm. Which spells on that list are limited in what they can effect or where they can work? There are a few druid spells that are limited like that, but most of them work just fine anywhere the druid happens to be.

None of the spells you just listed have those limitations...of course, because you picked ones that didnt But there are quite a few spells on the Druid list that do. Also remember, I dont have an especially high opinion of direct damage overall...and Druids get Finger of Death as an 8th level spell, after mages already have it as 7th level, and Clerics already have Destruction (and have had Slay Living for some time).

Again, I never said they arent powerful. I said that unlike what people think about the Cleric, the Druid list actually is more limited than that of say the Wizard.

I don't think you appreciate the versatility of wild shape. It's a disguise, a boost to hiding, a scouting technique, and many other things in addition to its combat utility. And the combat utility is not as much in getting good stats as it is getting special attacks. Most foes will be hard pressed to escape a 9th level druid's grapple in bown bear form, for instance. Pick the right form at the right time, and you don't have to be geared towards using wildshape for it to be dramatically effective.

Just like a Cleric doesnt have to be specifically geared toward physical combat to be effective either. Even less so than the Druid in fact. Clerics have full armor prof from level 1, and can cast in it with no restrictions of any kind. Druids require a feat to cast in Wildshape.

It is a very useful ability. I think of it more as a disguise/hiding/scouting ability though. It wont..especially in core...let a Druid become a Fighter.

 

[Merlion]

Heh. I'll agree with most of that statement, anyway. (Orb spells in Complete Arcane......shudder.......)

I think we've made some real headway by citing specific examples of "over-powerness" wrt the Clr. Some of the more interesting examples have been specific spell combos (let's drop Persistent X, as a persistent example brought up, O.K?), or even just a single spell in the Cleric's repetoire. You, for example, seem particularly troubled by Freedom of Movement. Could you describe the experience that led you to the conclusion that this spell is a problem?

Did you just read it thru once, or did some player pull a nasty while you were DMing?

If we're discussing non core stuff at all...which we are to an extent, still using Core as the main baseline...then Persistent is an issue.


Most of my issues do not involve spell combos or single spells on the Cleric list, in and of themselves. My main problem is with the package. Clerics get to much, loose almost nothing and have almost no real mechanical weaknesses. Many of the areas that people site them as being weak in...such as direct damage spells and reflex saving throws...are areas that, generally, arent especially powerful or useful anyway, especially beyond low levels.


Freedom of Movement is just one of the spells that adds to the Clerics incredible defenses. It makes you totally immune to a laundry list of effects and attacks. I dislike how it synergizes with the Clerics other abilities and spells. I think it (and all this goes for Death Ward too) might be just a little much as a spell in some ways...it provides *immunity* to a great many things. I think maybe it and Death Ward should provide immunity only to the things most directly related to them, and perhaps some good bonuses against the more side items. And lastly in whatever form I dont understand why only Clerics and Druids have these spells...they are among those spells I feel should be on the Wiz/Sor list as well (along with especially Spell Resistance and a few others).

Planar Binding. Instant (well ok, not really instant) 13th level cleric at 12th+/11th+ level.

This doesnt cut it for me. The thing you summon has access to the spells, not you. A Cleric can prepare and cast Wizard spells, or use them directly through items. A Wizard, especially in Core, can do no such thing.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm not disputing that the Druid is a very powerful...probably slightly overpowered...class. I dispute those who say the Druid is even more powerful and unbalanced than the Cleric, because that isnt the case. Druids mostly just dont need the HP and saves that they get...Clerics have deeper problems.

You see, I disagree here. I'd say that the druid is unquestionably and dramatically overpowered and that the cleric is (ignoring rules exploits like persistent spell: divine metamagic which is a problem because persistent spell is a problem in any context it comes up or caster level boosting+holy word or blasphemy which is a problem because the spell was not properly thought out) only mildly overpowered (and that's probably a good thing because the ability to be the party's band-aid is not going to be much of a selling point for the class.

Ok first, I never said that they were not powerful and useful spellcasters. Next, several of the spells you mention arent utility spells, and several more are among those I mentioned that have limitations as to what they can effect and/or where they are effective.

You keep talking about limitations on the druid spell list--which are those limited spells again? As far as I can tell, entangle is probably the best example (though it also regularly shows up on the list of overpowered spells) but it's also one of the very few examples. You have to really look through the druid list to find spells that have limitations on where they are effective. As for limitations on what they effect, that's hardly a druid issue. Sure, quench, animal growth, charm animal, and blight are all target-limited. However, so are undeath to death, command undead, halt undead, searing light, protection from evil, and a host of other spells. If the limited spells don't clog up the druid spell list and choke out generally useful spells then they're not a compelling argument for a druid's weakness--they're a way for the druid to be even stronger in their specialized environment.

All you have to do is look at the spell list, which I have. Please try to b calm...I'm not saying Druids suck or that their spell list is terrible. But it is smaller and more limited than the other 9 level casters...which is why its ok for them to have most of the other things they have. Note I say most, not all.

I am being calm. I'm just wondering if you have actually seen a 3.5 druid in play. I know I wouldn't describe the druid's spell list as limited myself. They do have fewer 9th level spells (core rules only--non-core materials eliminate this restriction) than it might be nice for them to have, but I still think you could pretty easily play an old guy with a staff and an animal who does his bidding, tell the party that you're a wizard, fill that role convincingly, and have nothing but druid levels.

None of the spells you just listed have those limitations...of course, because you picked ones that didnt But there are quite a few spells on the Druid list that do. Also remember, I dont have an especially high opinion of direct damage overall...and Druids get Finger of Death as an 8th level spell, after mages already have it as 7th level, and Clerics already have Destruction (and have had Slay Living for some time).

Sure. Druids get a lot of spells one level off of where clerics or wizards get it. They get poison at 3rd level, for instance, and flame strike at 4th so it goes both ways. The point of my list is that druids have plenty of top-tier nonrestricted spells at every level and a druid could quite comfortably play his entire career without ever preparing or casting a restricted area or target spell. He probably wouldn't because a lot of those restricted spells (like entangle, for instance) are incredible spells for their level and a druid would have a hard time passing up that power (especially when they can just turn them into summonings if they're in the wrong situation). But a druid could.

Again, I never said they arent powerful. I said that unlike what people think about the Cleric, the Druid list actually is more limited than that of say the Wizard.

Actually, I think you said that the druid list was more limited than that of the cleric. That's a rather separate contention. (And you'll note that most of the cleric spells you complain about (freedom of movement, death ward) are on the druid list as well). The problem with this contention is that you're wrong. While druids don't get everything on the cleric list (restoration, for instance is conspicuously absent, as is raise dead), they are stronger in other areas (direct damage spells, summoning, etc). I would say the cleric and druid spell lists are broadly comparable.

Just like a Cleric doesnt have to be specifically geared toward physical combat to be effective either. Even less so than the Druid in fact. Clerics have full armor prof from level 1, and can cast in it with no restrictions of any kind. Druids require a feat to cast in Wildshape.

You keep referring to wildshape and armor proficiency like they were comparable. They're not. (Show of hands--how many fighters wouldn't trade heavy armor proficiency for the ability to wildshape? How many clerics? Thought so). Heavy armor proficiency is a defensive ability that allows characters to get a good armor class without a high dexterity. (Characters with light armor can get nearly the same AC but require a good dexterity to do so). Heavy armor does nothing for a character's offense and has a number of serious restrictions (movement, no evasion, armor check penalties) that lead a lot of characters to eschew it even when they are proficient. (I've seen a number of moderate dexterity clerics, for instance, who prefer chain shirts or mithral chain mail to fullplate because they don't plan on getting into melee anyway). Wildshape, on the other hand, is an offensive (it grants special attacks, improved strength, dex, and con, etc), scouting, and mobility ability and at high levels (plant and elemental wildshape) has some very significant defensive capabilities as well (immunity to crits, etc). The two abilities do not fill the same roles nor do they approach
remotely similar levels of power. The comparison is apples and oranges.

As for the cleric being not having to be geared towards physical combat to be effective in it, you're wrong about that. I've played a number of clerics and they have very different abilities due to how they were designed. A cleric who is going to play the fighter role will have a good starting strength (if your cleric starts with an 8 strength, she can cast all the spells she wants and she'll merely be an adequate fighter if nothing else is available--she won't even be in the same ballpark as a well-designed fighter), good constitution, heavy armor, a good magical weapon, and a feat selection geared towards melee combat. A cleric who can be competitive with fighters will have feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Quicken Spell. (OK, and if you insist: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Extra Turning, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell or Extra Turning, Quicken Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell). A cleric with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Scribe Scroll, and Spell Penetration or Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Augment Healing, Extra Turning, and Divine Spellpower will not be competing with the fighters. Domains also make a big difference in a cleric's martial ability. A cleric with knowledge and sun domains or inquisition and purification is not likely to be competing with the fighters. The clerics who compete with fighters have domain combinations like Strength and Destruction or Competition and War.

The bottom line is this: if your cleric is not designed to be a combat powerhouse, you can cast all the spells you want and you will still be a merely adequate fighter--not competitive with the real fighters. (And the battle will often be over by the time you're done casting your buffs). If your cleric specifically sacrificed combat ability (8 str, 10 dex, 12 con, and no combat feats or combat focused domains for instance), he won't be a good fighter no matter what you do. If your cleric is designed to be a combat powerhouse, he will compete with fighters unless you're an incompetent designer/player. That's quite possibly a balance issue. But clerics DO have to be specifically geared towards combat to be effective melee combatants instead of people who can contribute as second tier fighters when there is a need.

It is a very useful ability. I think of it more as a disguise/hiding/scouting ability though. It wont..especially in core...let a Druid become a Fighter.

And I don't maintain that it does (though, with specific character design, it can allow a druid to fill a barbarian's role). It does, however, allow any druid--even one who specifically sacrificed melee combat ability in character design--to be a very effective second tier combatant and top shelf special forces (grappling, etc. when advantageous) when the need arises.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Persistent is only an issue WRT to clerics if it is specifically broken for clerics but not for anyone else. It's not. It's utterly and completely broken for anyone who gets any use out of it whatsoever. (Because the only non-broken uses are worthless at +6 levels). Wizards (especially fighter/wizards) break like an egg in an auto wreck when you pull persistent wraithstrike out of the bag. Now, Divine metamagic may make this more of an issue for clerics than for other classes, but it's still a problem with the Persistent Spell feat rather than clerics. Divine Metamagic is a problematic feat as well.

For comparison, if someone were to design an ability that let you automatically critical, that wouldn't make scythes broken. Scythes would demonstrate that the ability is broken. Clerics are the scythe. Divine metamagic and Persistent Spell are the autocrit ability in this analogy.

If we're discussing non core stuff at all...which we are to an extent, still using Core as the main baseline...then Persistent is an issue.

 

[Nail]

If we're discussing non core stuff at all...which we are to an extent, still using Core as the main baseline...then Persistent is an issue.

We can discuss non-core. Not a problem.

....and some of that non-core stuff is broken and/or poorly designed. Does that mean that a Core class that can use it is broken/poorly designed? Of course not.

Many of the areas that people site them as being weak in...such as direct damage spells and reflex saving throws...are areas that, generally, arent especially powerful or useful anyway, especially beyond low levels.

If those are the only weaknesses of the Clerics that you see, I can understand your concern. Is it possible you've simplified this list of weaknesses too far?

Freedom of Movement is just one of the spells that adds to the Clerics incredible defenses.

You keep saying this, and I don't buy it. I've played clerics, I've DMed clerics. I've seen the spell in play a few times.....and it's not seemed over-powered when used. Often it's a "band-aid spell" applied after the fact. If you'd like, I'd be happy to detail my experiences.

I'm afraid you're going to have to put your money where your mouth is. Have you seen this spell in play? Where and how, exactly?