Which comes first? Effects order question (my players kindly avoid)

[WizarDru]

OK, here's a question for you guys:

Let's say I have a monster. Let's say he's an Epic monster.

Say, for example, a white Slaad. Perhaps a white Slaad who has gotten Spell Resistance temporarily. Now suppose for a moment that this bugger has a ring of Spell Turning, too. He's got good saves...epic ones, near enough. So, then, here's the question: assuming he's activated the ring and he gets targeted by a spell, what's the chain of events?

In other words: If an enemy spellcaster were to target him, what effects transpire first? Let's say he gets his with a finger of death, for example. Does he have the choice of trying to make his save before the ring of spell turning can be used, and then only use it when it fails...or does the ring trump this, by automatically taking the spell, regardless? What of SR? I assume it goes before the save...but what about the ring? How conscious an act, once activated, is the ring's power?

What about if someone casts a heal spell on him? Will the ring catch that, whether he likes it or not (assuming it's capacity remains)?

Thoughts? Comments? SRD citations?

 

[spunky_mutters]

Given that Spell Turning says you have to be targeted, but does not say you have to be affected for it to kick in, I would say it goes off first. Spell Resistance says you still get a save if it fails (if applicable), so it gets triggered next. Then comes the save.

Of course I haven't checked errata or FAQ for clarification, so I might be missing something.

 

[the Jester]

Though I don't know of a place where there's an official ruling, I too would say ST takes effect before SR.

Reasoning: the spell turning effects turns the spell before the 'victim' checks SR or saving throws.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Though I don't know of a place where there's an official ruling, I too would say ST takes effect before SR.

Reasoning: the spell turning effects turns the spell before the 'victim' checks SR or saving throws.

I use the same logic. I have no actual rules backing that I can cite to support this theory however. All I can say is that it seems logical to me to check Spell Turning before SR.

Tzarevitch

 

[WizarDru]

I use the same logic. I have no actual rules backing that I can cite to support this theory however. All I can say is that it seems logical to me to check Spell Turning before SR.

Relevant SRD Quote #1:
"SPELL RESISTANCE

Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.

The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place."

Relevant SRD Quote #2:
"Spell Turning: Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly as if spell turning had been cast upon the wearer."

Relevant SRD Quote #3:
"Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. "

So, if I've got this right, the order of effects should be:

1. Spell is cast.
2. If spell is one that Spell Turning can deflect, it does so.
3. If the spell exceeds the rings reflection capacity, the fractional part is sent backwards, while the remainder passes on.
4. Whatever gets past would then be subject to SR.
5. Anything bypassing SR would result in a save, if allowed.

Whew.

It's not dismissible, but there a quite a few spells that would get through. Ranged touch spells aren't effected, nor are non targeted spells, such as healing circle or mass heals. Interesting.

 

[the Jester]

The combo of SR, spell turning and good saves makes you pretty invincible to many spells...

btw, Wiz, could you lose the black up there?- it's hard to read.

 

[palin]

Relevant SRD Quote #1:
"SPELL RESISTANCE

Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.

The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place."

Relevant SRD Quote #2:
"Spell Turning: Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly as if spell turning had been cast upon the wearer."

Relevant SRD Quote #3:
"Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. "

So, if I've got this right, the order of effects should be:

1. Spell is cast.
2. If spell is one that Spell Turning can deflect, it does so.
3. If the spell exceeds the rings reflection capacity, the fractional part is sent backwards, while the remainder passes on.
4. Whatever gets past would then be subject to SR.
5. Anything bypassing SR would result in a save, if allowed.

Whew.

It's not dismissible, but there a quite a few spells that would get through. Ranged touch spells aren't effected, nor are non targeted spells, such as healing circle or mass heals. Interesting.

Actually, reading your SRD quotes I'd have to say that SR takes priority over ST because ...

"The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks."

Which seems to imply that if the caster does not overcome a creatures SR, that creature never has a chance of being affected by the spell. ST would take over if SR fails because then the spell caster has actually 'hit' you with the spell. Any left over would then be subject to normal saves.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, logically, it would suggest that spell turning, if active, occurs first: Spell turning is a defensive shield designed to repel magical attacks BEFORE they affect you. This is further substantiated by the fact that spell turning is ineffective against touch spells: Because the spell is discharged on contact, it has already passed through the shield. Spell turning similarly isn't described as affecting spells that the wearer casts on himself: It would be silly to return the spell back to the caster anyway, since the caster is already doing that. Logically, it can be reasoned that such a spell begins and ends "inside" the protective field of spell turning, and as such, never comes into affect.

Of course, the easiest solution, as a bastard DM, is, "Whatever screws players over more."

 

[WizarDru]

Well, in practice, I used it essentially as a magical shield. It was a problematic and far less useful spell than I thought it would be, in retrospect. Being essentially useless against area effect spells and ranged touch attacks, it only stops a handful of spells.

But we wasted a lot of time figuring out which, ultimately.

 

[dravot]

Well, in practice, I used it essentially as a magical shield. It was a problematic and far less useful spell than I thought it would be, in retrospect. Being essentially useless against area effect spells and ranged touch attacks, it only stops a handful of spells.

But we wasted a lot of time figuring out which, ultimately.

I lost track of how many spells got turned, then unturned, then returned only to be un-re-turned. Or something.

I guess it's part of the paper-scissors-rock treatment. It's great against a particular subset of spells, but useless against all the rest.