Which do you do first: Make the "dungeon" or the story?

[Ferox4]

I'd say its more like the first chapter of a story, with maybe an idea for chapter 2.

PS

Ok, call it what you will, but my point is that unless you want truly random situations there needs to be some kind of cohesive device involved: Story, chapter, plot, scheme, intrigue, machination, procedure, tactic, stratagem, cabal....... you pick the noun. Without some structure the play is almost pointless.

 

[Olive]

Basically story, but I have come up with stories in order to use cool monsters fairly regularly.

 

[Crothian]

Story first always. The characters have to have a reason, or tsomeone has to have a reason for the PCs to do anything. The story of course isn't planned out, the PCs actions fill in the blanks.

 

[arwink]

Dungeon first. If I do story first, I tend to fall back on old ideas. So instead I draw/find an interesting map, pick a few new monsters that I want to include, build a detailed encounter or two, and *then* work out why things are there and how the players are going to get involved.

This is, of course, assuming that I do that much planning in the first place. More often than not, I'm using a backlogue of stats and making stuff up as I go along.

 

[bloodymage]

Neither. The world comes first. Dungouns are already there. Plot elements, already there. Everything's ready for the characters to make the choices that will shape the story.

 

[Joe123]

dreaded_beast,

there is usually some background to my campaign (or story in question) before I map a dungeon. However, there is no rule that says "you must have a story before you design the dungeon."

For your first adventure, I recommend sticking with the element of a dungeon, without too much story detail. Let the players decide how they go about things (even if you disagree with their method), let them dictate for themselves which rooms they enter, etc. Dungeons flow from one room to another, so there is not need to ad-lib the setting, you simply look at your little dungeon map and describe what they see as they take a path.

You only have three to four rooms on your dungeon map. I would expand upon that, unless you want an exceptionally short adventure! I think you and the players will have fun, even without a complicated adventure story background which includes the PCs' history. Don't pressure yourself. Run it in dungeon and see how you go. Experience in and of itself will demonstrate to you just what things in an adventure work and what things don't.

A golden rule in spite of all this is resist any temptation to railroad the players. Imagine if you are a player for a minute. Would you want to be lead around the nose by the DM, having little say in what action you choose? Of course not! Therefore, once you've got the dungeon map, you can almost sit back, relax and enjoy as your players' characters explore the dungeon, with the least amount of subtle or disguised persuasion by the DM as to what path or action they "should" take.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm with bloodymage on this. I don't really plan a story. I just plan a world.

For instance, I'll start with a village. Where is the village? In the foothills of the mountains, on the bank of a swift and cold river. In fact, let's call this village Coldstream. Why is Coldstream here? Because the trees in the area provide an excellent quality of hardwood and a tasty nut. Heck, let's say they're walnut trees. So Coldstream is populated by loggers, but the inhabitants also gather nuts, which they consume themselves, and also trade for other goods. And let's say that the residents also hunt game, both large and small, to provide themselves with meat, hide and bone.

Now, what sort of services should we have in Coldstream? We need a blacksmith (expert 2) who specializes in making axes and other tools the loggers need. He also provides arrowheads for the hunters, as well as metal implements such as pots and pans for the community. We also need a tanner (expert 1), since hides will be relatively abundant. You can't trade stinky raw hides. Well, you could, but do you really want to store them? Blech. We also need a temple, probably to a nature god, so there's a priest and maybe a few acolytes. (Cleric 2 and some first level adepts.) Because this is D&D, we need a tavern. Throw in a handful of trappers, hunters, loggers and the like, and come up with names for them. If you've got a village map (check the WotC website) it's all good.

Next step, what sort of problems does the village of Coldstream have? Did someone's heirloom sword get stolen? Has the blacksmith's son gone missing? Is one of the acolytes acting funny? Is the best hunter feuding with the priest? Is the caravan late? Has a dire boar and his sow wandered into the region, scaring all the deer away? Are kobalds coming down from the mountains all of a sudden? Pick a few of these, and you have several adventure hooks.

Now, let's pick 4 of those.
1. The blacksmith's son is missing.
2. The caravan is late.
3. Dire boars.
4. Kobolds.

You can tie these all together if you like. Maybe the blacksmith's son went to gather walnuts and was killed by the dire boar. The dire boar has wandered into the area because the kobolds have pushed it out of its usual habitat higher up in the mountains. The caravan is late because the kobolds have blocked the road with a rockslide, unbeknownst to the inhabitants of Coldstream. The kobolds are coming down from the mountains because they uncovered some nameless horror in their mountain lair and it has mind controlled their shaman/leader.

I could go on, but you get the drift. The PCs can choose to investigate any of these plot hooks, or they can wander off and do something else. Of course, if they wander to the west, they'll find the blocked road and a bunch of kobolds. If they wander to the east, well, you'll just have to come up with something for them to find in that direction.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I try to do both, there has to be a reason for the dungeon and you have to tie it into your story in some form, then you have to get the players there. Then there is the dungeon that helps build the story, releasing some plot element to the characters.

I break dungeons down as such:
> Hideout - bad guys hang out here. The players go to the dungeon to remove the threat.
> Chest - something is inside it, could be animal, undead, or item(s). The players have to go to the dungeon and find it.
> Passage - the dungeon offers a way to another location. This is your repeat visit dungeon. It could be an enterance to the underdark, portals, or a shortcut, there is risk and danger.

 

[Mystic_23]

Wow, that's pretty good, Buttercup. Quick and simple to making a good first level adventure. It would even work to use that as the beginning to a continuous campaign.

I'll have to try that.

 

[WizarDru]

Anyways, I was wondering if I might have had better results by thinking of the story first and the building the "dungeon" around the story.

What do you think?

I use both methods, although at high-levels, I don't plan dungeons so much as encounters. I know that at point A or point B, the players will engage villian X in battle, and rarely is it in a proper dungeon environment. As often as not, I visualize the battlefield as the encounter it.

Both the top-down and bottom-up approaches work, as long as you're consistent and flexible. For a campaign starter, proper hooks are more important to me. In your case, the questions you really need to ask are:

1) Why Us? - The players are going to need some motivation. Why doesn't the Sheriff handle this problem?

2) Why hasn't someone else done this? - Putting an ancient tomb ten miles out of town is all good and well, but you have to establish why more powerful heroes or adventurers hadn't dealt with the problem already.

3) How are you going to get the PCs involved by their own choice, as opposed to a railroad?

To use your example above, you've got a dungeon, and want to relate it to the character's history. That's fine, but then you have to explain why no previous members of the various PCs families have dealt with the problem. ("Oh, Grandpa's risen from his grave again?")

If you want suggestions, we can offer them in plenty, I'm sure.