Which is more efficacious: +3 or +2 with a boost?

Personally I would go with +2 Thundering. Thundering also got bumped down to +1 in 3.5, and I think archers make the best use of it (they tend to get a couple more full-attack actions than fighters). Generally it won't be as useful as +1/+1 or +1d6 elemental, however it doesn't need to be activated (like an elemental weapon) and many times it won't be of any benefit at all. +2d8 sonic on a crit is fairly powerful though, and while the DC is low everyone fails on a 1.

Technik
 

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+3.

Why? Because of Sunder. A +3 or better weapon is require to sunder your +3 bow, only a +2 or better for the +2 bow. This is what keeps everyone from having special power after special power on a +12 weapon.

Also, you get more hardness and hit points, though I am not sure how many becasue of the error with how enhanced shields work. (There is a conflict in how much hardness and how many hit points per "plus" that they get.)
 

Fenris said:

For an archer however there is no way to convert attack bonuses to damage as a melee focused character can. Thus the extra 1d6 for the -1 attack, a poor mans Power Attack.

But that's my point, you DO get more damage out of a higher attack roll, even without a damage-boosting enchantment, simply by virtue of the increased number of arrows that hit. Power Attack, contrary to what you'd expect, does NOT increase average damage in 3E since the odds of hitting with an attack are usually far more restrictive than the damage per attack.

Let's look at some numbers. Let's say you're a 12th-level Ranger or Fighter, with Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, DEX of 20, STR of 14, using an enchanted Mighty Composite Longbow (+2 STR). The target is within 30', no cover or concealment, and has an AC of 30. The arrows are unenchanted, the bow has an enchantment. You don't have any beneficial spells on.

We'll use a +2 enchantment as a baseline, and then add the remaining +1 or Flaming later. With that +2, your attack bonus for using a Full Attack with Rapid Shot is +18/+18/+13/+8, and you do 9.5 damage per successful hit (plus 10% for crits).

That means you have a 45% chance of hitting with the first arrow, 45% with the second, 20% with the third, and 5% with the fourth (auto-hit on 20). So, on average you hit with 1.15 arrows.
Average damage = 1.15 * 9.5 * 1.1 = 12.0175 damage per round.
(If you didn't Rapid Shot, it'd be 55%/30%/5% = 0.9 arrows per turn hitting)

So that's the baseline. Yes, it's a piddly amount of damage, but that's what you get for using unenhanced arrows. Now let's look at the two options for the last +1 enchantment:

1> If I add Flaming to the mix, I still only hit with 1.15 arrows, but I now do (9.5 * 1.1) + 3.5 = 13.95 damage per hit, for an average damage of 16.0425 damage per round.

2> If I add a +1 Enhancement, I now do (10.5 * 1.1) = 11.55 damage per hit, but my odds of hitting are now 50%/50%/25%/5% = 1.3 arrows per turn hit. Average damage = 15.015 damage per round.

So, while the +1d6 Flaming added 4 damage per round, the +1 Enhancement added 3 even without any sort of Power Attack. This difference isn't very large, and is often counteracted by the number of targets resistant or immune to fire, so the two are pretty well balanced.
If you, as the archer, had ANY way to increase the per-hit damage (Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, Weapon Specialization damage bonus, larger Mighty bow, enchanted arrows, or any ability that kicks in on a critical hit), it'd shift even further towards the Enhancement Bonus being the best choice.

Overall, if you're looking for consistent damage output, the Enhancement bonus is just a stronger choice than practically every other option. This is especially true at high level. Its big downside, though, is it's just so PLAIN. It's boring. People want swords that are on fire, or that slice off limbs, or whatever, even if it lowers their damage output a bit.

Elemental damage boosters are great in five situations:
1> When you only have a single attack to make (no Rapid Shot, Flurry, Full Attacks, etc.), the extra 0.05 hits per round an attack boost gives you doesn't help nearly as much.
2> If all of your attacks either need a natural 20 to hit or can only miss on a 1, an attack boost doesn't do much to your odds.
3> If the target has some sort of DR that you can't possibly bypass, but you have no other option but to power through it. If the target is immune to critical hits, even better.
4> If you know you're going up against creatures with a specific vulnerability to an element. The best example is Trolls. You just plain NEED fire or acid, so a Flaming bow is really handy there. But if you're trying to balance the enchantments in general you have to ignore this one, since it works against you just as often.
5> If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, so that a +1 Flaming Frost Shock Thundering weapon can get boosted to a +5 without losing the elemental damage enhancements.

My point was, you can't just look at it as trading 1 attack bonus for 2.5 damage and saying that clearly the elemental boost is better since it has a higher number. Attack bonuses are just inherently more valuable in the majority of cases. Power Attack was a balanced Feat by the fact that it was a sub-optimal tradeoff at 1:1 (even the new 1:2 for 2-handers is behind the curve at many levels.)

If you really want to trade off attack bonus for something, use Manyshot and Rapid Shot a lot.

And Artoomis: as I mentioned above, that "must have a higher Enhancement bonus to Sunder" rule isn't in 3.5E. At least, I can't find it in the SRD. Besides, bows aren't sundered, they're under the "strike an object" rules, which are far easier to break things with.
 



If you are using 3.5 (or 3.0 with Arms & Equipment Guide) go for Distance or Seeking. Both are +1, Distance doubles the range, and Seeking negates miss chances from concealment, displacement, etc. They don't add to damage, but (especially Seeking) can be very useful.
 

Saeviomagy said:
Doesn't elemental damage on a weapon bypass DR (and in the case of sonic) Hardness?

Yes, but this isn't an advantage for the weapon enchantments. Usually.

Think of it this way:
I have a weapon that does 9 points of damage. I attack a creature with DR 5/-. 4 points gets through. So far so good?
If I then give the weapon a bigger Enhancement bonus, raising its damage by 1, the DR is irrelevant to our discussion because it's already been "paid for". The weapon is a single source of damage, so DR only gets applied once to the total damage. I still get the full +1 damage out of the Enhancement, and I now do 5 damage instead of the old 4.
On the other hand, if I give the weapon the Flaming ability, I may not get the 1d6 damage since I haven't applied the fire resistance yet. A weapon with Flaming is effectively two separate sources of damage, each of which can be mitigated separately.

The only way I wouldn't get that full +1 damage from the Enhancement is if I attack something with DR of 10/- (well, 10/something I can't deal with), in which case I can't do squat anyway. Well, I could depend on getting a critical hit (not possible on many enemies), but that's not really a good long-term plan.
But, if I put Flaming on instead of that Enhancement, I'd now have a weapon that does a grand total of 1d6 damage per hit. At 12th level. Against something that somehow has managed to get a really high DR. At that point you're better off giving up on direct attacks and using your actions to grapple, help the Rogues flank, and so on.
In some ways this is a good thing (I'm less likely to be totally neutralized by a really high DR) but if we're arguing average damage against most enemies, the whole DR-vs-resists thing works against the elemental boosts.

Of course, if you were so concerned about DR, you'd just put Sure Striking on the weapon in the first place. Not that there's a 3.5E version yet.
 

Personally, I think the significant number of times my character is unable to make a full attack makes the elemental bonus more appealing. Not to mention that GMW seems to be a fairly common spell (particularly since GMW still lasts all day at higher levels, whil Bull's Str and Cat's grace no longder do).
 

Azure Trance said:
Spaz makes me think of a college graduate who got a degree in D&D Statistics.

Do you make awesomely twinked characters?

I'm a card-carrying Friar of the Church of Munchkin from my BattleTech days, thanks to one particularly ridiculous design I posted on a message board. But no, I don't min-max much in a long-term game, because it's usually just not fun.

That's not really the issue here, though; I'm not saying the Flaming-type enchantments aren't balanced as is, I'm just trying to refute the "they're CLEARLY better because you lose 1 attack to get 2.5 damage" statements. You get more damage, in some situations, against certain enemy types. They're still good enchantments, just not no-brainers.

The reason I know these statistics is because a while back a discussion started on whether a "+1 Flaming Flaming Flaming" weapon was valid under the rules, and then the question came up of whether it was even a good idea in the first place. In the process of coming up with alternatives, I spent a while working on some +4-cost Greater elemental enchantments, and to make sure they were balanced I did a lot of number-crunching. On the bright side, it DID lead to some nice enchantments for my campaign, which we've been happy with.

Mistwell: for melee types, yes, but he's talking about a bow. Why WOULDN'T you do a Full Attack (or at least use Rapid Shot and Multishot to launch three or four arrows, which does the same thing mathematically)?
Also, in 3.5E There's a lot less reason NOT to stand still and do a Full Attack, especially considering the changes to Haste and the increased number of Feats or Class Abilities that give extra attacks (the monk Flurry rules, the Ranger 2WF chain, etc.)
 

Spatzimaus said:


Yes, but this isn't an advantage for the weapon enchantments. Usually.

In some ways this is a good thing (I'm less likely to be totally neutralized by a really high DR) but if we're arguing average damage against most enemies, the whole DR-vs-resists thing works against the elemental boosts.

Of course, if you were so concerned about DR, you'd just put Sure Striking on the weapon in the first place. Not that there's a 3.5E version yet.

I have thought about one other reason why flaming weapons might be good - take a look at the rules for swarms. A good many are immune to weapon damage, although elemental damage on a weapon applies normally.

Personally, I think you're right. Neither is inherently better in every situation - primarily the decision is one of personal choice.
 

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