Which is more important for Bbn: Dex or Con?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Secondly, the subsidiary benefits are much better. +1 Reflex save is probably more useful than a +1 Fort save (due to a. having a good Fort save and b. conspicuous targeting notions). +1 Initiative is not to be sneered at. +1 to hit with ranged weapons is useful (though throwing axes are better than wussy bows ).

Interesting analysis, but I will disagree about the subsidiary benefits.

Refl targetting spells rarely kill a reasonably healthy PC. Fort targetting spells easily can.

Failing a Fort is often extremely bad, e.g. fighting ghouls. And those Fort saves that are not so bad often come in multiples, e.g. poison. A Barbarian or Fighter with a good Con can easily suck up a Fireball and not slow down.

If you need a 14 to save vs. a 10-die Fireball, average damage is 28.7. If you need a 13 to save vs. a 10-die Fireball, average damage is 27.8. So the Barbarian is usually better off taking a higher Con and getting that +1HP/lvl as a defense against Fireballs.

As for Power Attack, NPCs do not get to check the PC's character sheet when deciding how to boost the damage. Even if a DM were inclined to cheat in this manner, he is usually too busy to precisely minmax. Most DMs just guestimate, e.g. '+2 damage vs. heavy armor, +6 damage vs. medium armor, +8 damage vs. light armor'. So the Power Attack effect you describe is theorectially possible, but just doesn't show up in real play.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd go for Dex 14, Con 13. At 1st level I'd prefer the +1 to AC rather than the +1 to hp. Plus get some extra benefit from that uncanny dodge. At 4th level I'd raise the Con to 14.

It might even be interesting to play one with

Str 13
Dex 15
Con 14

and then improve Dex at 4th level to 16. All barbarians don't have to be str-maxed 2H weapon wielders. They can easily be dextrous agile fighters and their uncanny dodge makes them all the better for it. The above barbarian with combat reflexes and longspear could be a ferocious combatant, especially when raging.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Side note / hijack of my own thread. At least in the 3.0 PH (I don't have stats for 3.5 handy), here is the breakdown of spells by saving throw: Fort 34, Ref 28, Will 180 (!). [Will count partially inflated by harmless beneficial spells.] [Doesn't include "see text" spells, either.]

If you fail a Fort save you typically die or take debilitating ability damage: Destruction, Disintegrate, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Horrid Wilting, Implosion, Poison, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee.

If you fail a Ref save you typically take hit point damage or are immobilized: Blade Barrier, Cone of Cold, Fireball, Flame Strike, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's ~ Sphere, Sepia Snake Sigil, Web.

So this does seem to argue in favor of pumping up your Fort saves (Con) instead of Ref saves (Dex).

Now back to the debate....

 

[orangefruitbat]

Fail a fortitude save - you die.
Fail a reflex save - you get hurt
Fail a will save - your fellow party members die! ('Must smash friends!')

For the love of your party, every barbarian should put his best stat into Wisdom and take Iron Will. Otherwise, it's 'ok, Crom is charmed. He rages and, with his two-handed axe, power-attacks the elven wizard at full...'.

Side note / hijack of my own thread. At least in the 3.0 PH (I don't have stats for 3.5 handy), here is the breakdown of spells by saving throw: Fort 34, Ref 28, Will 180 (!). [Will count partially inflated by harmless beneficial spells.] [Doesn't include "see text" spells, either.]

If you fail a Fort save you typically die or take debilitating ability damage: Destruction, Disintegrate, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Horrid Wilting, Implosion, Poison, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee.

If you fail a Ref save you typically take hit point damage or are immobilized: Blade Barrier, Cone of Cold, Fireball, Flame Strike, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's ~ Sphere, Sepia Snake Sigil, Web.

So this does seem to argue in favor of pumping up your Fort saves (Con) instead of Ref saves (Dex).

Now back to the debate....

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Except that tricky combat expertise users generally aren't barbarians since combat expertise can't be used while raging and non-multiclassed barbarians don't get enough feats to take feats they can't use while raging (which they will generally do for tough fights).

Thanks to everyone who posted. You've certainly given me much to think about. A lot depends upon what kind of barbarian you want to make - power attacking bruiser, tricky combat expertise-user, spring attacker, or something else. Ah, the beauty of choice.

 

[jgsugden]

Just a min-max thought:

You'll find items along the road to increase physical abilities. You can never have too much constitution or strength, but after a while, the primary benefit of dexterity, AC, is limited by your armor. Items can give a +6 enhancement bonus to dexterity (which equates to a +3 to AC). Chain shirts and medium armor cap out at a +4 bonus to AC from dexterity. That means that unless you get special (mithril) armor or don't get optimal dexterity increasing items, any dex bonus beyond +1 will eventually be lost to you.

Enhancement bonus items are pretty cheap for the benefit. Many PCs buy/make them if they get a chance.

This doesn't apply to all games and all situations, but if it applies to yours, it is a strong argument in favor of a higher constitution and a weaker dexterity.

 

[Gnome Berzerker]

I put CON and DEX as more important that STR anyway. You're going to pump your STR a ton when raging anyway, and you'll do your damage.

I also go with that "All Power Attack all the time" theory, though.


You need to stay alive. This is race dependent, of course, but this is how I would arrange a Barbarian (standard array):

STR: 13
DEX: 14
CON: 15
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

Pump the STR at 4th, the CON at 8th, and then STR from there.

Of course, when I played my first Gnomish Barbarian, I actually did use the standard array, and did it a little bit differently:

STR: 13 (15-2) (14 at 4th level)
DEX: 14
CON: 15 (13+2) (16 at 8th level)
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 10 (I wanted those cantrips!)

 

[Endur]

My chosen barbarian stats:
Str 15 (+1 at level 4, level 12+)
Con 14
Dex 13 (+1 at level 8)

Mental stats for a barbarian are harder, but I prefer these:
Chr 12 (for the babes)
Int 10 (for the skills)
Wis 8 (its ok if the beautiful babe charms you or puts you to sleep)

For weapons: The Great Sword (best weapon money can buy)

For feats:
level 1: Power Attack, Cleave (assuming human barbarian)
level 3: Weapon Focus Great Sword
level 6: Great Cleave
level 9: Improved Critical Great Sword
level 12: Iron Will
level 15: other stuff

If playing half-orc, I'd probably flip the chr and the wisdom stats (half-orcs never get the babes, so why put points in chr) and move weapon focus to 9th level.

There is a reasonable argument about not making str your best stat, but Barbarians are all about strength, so you should always make it your best stat.

oh yes, I agree, All Power Attack, All the Time
The cleave series of feats is much more important to a barb than the spring attack feats (to smash ranks of enemies is better than smashing a single enemy).

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Just to be contrary, consider that AC is never totally useless. Having an extra +1 from Dex is always useful at low levels. At high levels, it can be the difference when the iterative attacks come your way - if the barbarian is going toe-to-toe with his opponents (to get his full attack action), then he'll take the same in return. Sure, the first attack may always (95%) hit, but what about the rest?

 

[FrankTrollman]

As you rise in levels, you are taking a greater percentage of your damage from things which aren't even making attack rolls - such as area effect and targetted damage.

As a Barbarian, you should have enough hit points to get through almost any combat so long as your rage holds out. So the real question is actually whether your rage will last long enough to get healed. That's just Con dependent - which means Con is your most important stat.

-Frank