Which level cap do you prefer?
- Thread starter Ry
- Start date
Ry
Explorer
... sigh ... Nifft, Deekin... thanks for the... insightful ... responses.
You'd think that in the house rules forum, where people so frequently talk about lowering the magic level or power level, this wouldn't be such a crazy idea.
I've been over this before in my 6th-level epic rules design thread.
More recently, there was the discussion of D&D changing by design every 5 levels. My players love playing this way, because you don't get into wonky superhero stuff, you really stick to the "We're awesome but lord of the rings awesome" kind of stuff. We've been playing with the 6th level cap for ages.
But I'm thinking of changing the cap to 10th, but I want to keep the magic level about the same.
You'd think that in the house rules forum, where people so frequently talk about lowering the magic level or power level, this wouldn't be such a crazy idea.
I've been over this before in my 6th-level epic rules design thread.
More recently, there was the discussion of D&D changing by design every 5 levels. My players love playing this way, because you don't get into wonky superhero stuff, you really stick to the "We're awesome but lord of the rings awesome" kind of stuff. We've been playing with the 6th level cap for ages.
But I'm thinking of changing the cap to 10th, but I want to keep the magic level about the same.
Dragonblade275
First Post
What about redesigning the spellcasting classes with the 10 level cap?
A cleric, for instance, is often played as a divine spellcasting warrior.
Why not combine the benefits of the fighter and the cleric into one class somehow? Almost as if the cleric were taking every other level in fighter or something else, instead?
Or, in other words, require that clerics and other primary spellcassters must multiclass? Leave the sixth level cap for primary spellcasters and force them to multiclass to advance beyond 6th level.
Of course, I'd allow them (and encourage them) to multiclass earlier.
Any problems with this idea? After all, Gandalf looked pretty skilled with the sword and staff in the LOTR's movies. Perhaps, he was a multiclassed wizard6/fighter4?
A cleric, for instance, is often played as a divine spellcasting warrior.
Why not combine the benefits of the fighter and the cleric into one class somehow? Almost as if the cleric were taking every other level in fighter or something else, instead?
Or, in other words, require that clerics and other primary spellcassters must multiclass? Leave the sixth level cap for primary spellcasters and force them to multiclass to advance beyond 6th level.
Of course, I'd allow them (and encourage them) to multiclass earlier.
Any problems with this idea? After all, Gandalf looked pretty skilled with the sword and staff in the LOTR's movies. Perhaps, he was a multiclassed wizard6/fighter4?
Celebrim
Legend
Instead of capping it, why not slow level progression exponentially. This would effectively keep you in that 'sweet spot' for as long as you liked without any sort of artificial limits.
1st 0 xp
2nd 1000 xp
3rd 5000 xp
4th 14000 xp
5th 30000 xp
6th 55000 xp
7th 91000 xp
8th 140000 xp
9th 204000 xp
10th 285000 xp
If any campaign every got beyond that, I'd be really suprised.
As for magic, the problem isn't really magic but those few notorious game changing spells: invisibility, hold person, fly, teleport, polymorph, raise dead, and depending on your style of play detect evil, detect lies, speak with the dead, etc.
Some of those spells aren't going to go away with a cap at even 6th level, but at the same time a spellcaster is generally weaker than any other class IME until 7th level. Before that they just don't get enough spells per day.
Really, its impossible for me to know how to advise you unless I understood what bothers you about mid-level play. Third edition doesn't even start breaking down IME until 13th level or so, and alot of people really enjoy it beyond that.
1st 0 xp
2nd 1000 xp
3rd 5000 xp
4th 14000 xp
5th 30000 xp
6th 55000 xp
7th 91000 xp
8th 140000 xp
9th 204000 xp
10th 285000 xp
If any campaign every got beyond that, I'd be really suprised.
As for magic, the problem isn't really magic but those few notorious game changing spells: invisibility, hold person, fly, teleport, polymorph, raise dead, and depending on your style of play detect evil, detect lies, speak with the dead, etc.
Some of those spells aren't going to go away with a cap at even 6th level, but at the same time a spellcaster is generally weaker than any other class IME until 7th level. Before that they just don't get enough spells per day.
Really, its impossible for me to know how to advise you unless I understood what bothers you about mid-level play. Third edition doesn't even start breaking down IME until 13th level or so, and alot of people really enjoy it beyond that.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
rycanada said:
The insight here is: I like high level play, even though (perhaps because) it's different than low level play.
The other insight here is: you gotta sell this better. It's not that crazy an idea, but with no motivation other than "here's your choices", I frankly can't find a whole lot of appeal in either one.
- - -
However, now that you've actually stated a goal, it's easier to comment usefully.
I don't know Iron Heroes or Conan personally, but from what I've heard, they would be worth looking at for you & your group.
Alternately, limit spellcasting classes to level 6. There's just no levels after 6. You can take two of them if you want, or three, but you can only ever cast up to 3rd level spells. You can also take Fighter, Rogue, or whatever levels for the rest.
"Low-magic" classes to consider:
- Warlock and Dragonfire Adept
- Swordsage (and other Martial Adepts)
- Dragon Shaman (takes care of healing nicely)
- Binder (and possibly some of my Spirit Binders)
These are classes that don't get the big dungeon-busting spells (teleport and plane shift for example), but which do kick a lot of butt when butt-kicking is what must be done.
Cheers, -- N
The Levitator
First Post
I really enjoyed your other thread on capping at 6th. To be honest, most of our campaigns usually climax around 12th level. I think it's partly due to how much the game changes around that level. My players are much more into gritty, "it's the hero, not the gear" kind of game, and that drew me to your idea of capping at 6th and buying the rest of the character's progression buffet style with EXP. I purchased Iron Heroes and really like the concept of that gaming world, but I use DM Genie, and there are too many things in IH that I wouldn't know how to script into it. We are starting a new campaign Sunday (yikes! in about 10 hours!), and we are going to discuss the idea of capping at 12th and trying your idea past 12th and experiment with going a little further than we normally do. It will be a while before I can report on our progress, as my old-school gamers demand to start at 1st level on our campaigns. Add to that a slower EXP progression, and we get a quite a bit of bang for our buck.
If I had to choose between 1 or the other, I would choose the 6th level cap, because it still allows all of the classes to be available. We have some house rules that make magic a little more untamed, so high level spells aren't too much of a problem. It's also worth mentioning that I don't have any powergamers in my group. Just a bunch of dusty old geezers looking to tell a great story and have an excuse to drink some mead on Sunday afternoon!
I think we are going to try your method from the other post, so I hope you don't mind a PM every once in a while to make sure we are on the right path.
If I had to choose between 1 or the other, I would choose the 6th level cap, because it still allows all of the classes to be available. We have some house rules that make magic a little more untamed, so high level spells aren't too much of a problem. It's also worth mentioning that I don't have any powergamers in my group. Just a bunch of dusty old geezers looking to tell a great story and have an excuse to drink some mead on Sunday afternoon!
I think we are going to try your method from the other post, so I hope you don't mind a PM every once in a while to make sure we are on the right path.
Maldor
First Post
i have played in many, many ,many campiagns that stoped at between level 6-12 becuase the DM liked running those levels and didn't like his PC gitting to strong but though he was a very good DM in most ways this was the ends we all got bored with playing the same level fighting the same monsters casting the same spell i quit the group and jioned another so did all but one or two others last i heard. i am currently in my first high level chacter of the dedade and i love it
Ry
Explorer
Nifft - fair enough, thanks for the alternate class suggestions.
Dragonblade - The multiclassing idea is pretty smart. I should have thought of that. =)
Celebrim, you're quite right that it's spells (the ones on your list and several others) that spoil mid-level play for me. Things like detect lies, while not technically mid-level, don't usually get bought until the characters are mid level, which is why I think of them that way.
Levitator, you exactly stated why I like to stick with core-ish D&D, instead of branching out to IH or Conan (which I also own) - the support.
Maldor, my players LOVE getting more and more and more and more feats, but otherwise staying at the cap. Getting to the cap is like saying "Hey, we've made it, we're badass, now we're going to get more versatile."
Dragonblade - The multiclassing idea is pretty smart. I should have thought of that. =)
Celebrim, you're quite right that it's spells (the ones on your list and several others) that spoil mid-level play for me. Things like detect lies, while not technically mid-level, don't usually get bought until the characters are mid level, which is why I think of them that way.
Levitator, you exactly stated why I like to stick with core-ish D&D, instead of branching out to IH or Conan (which I also own) - the support.
Maldor, my players LOVE getting more and more and more and more feats, but otherwise staying at the cap. Getting to the cap is like saying "Hey, we've made it, we're badass, now we're going to get more versatile."
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