Which stat for a staff?

[youspoonybard]

From the DMG 3.5, pg 243:

"Because they use the wielder's ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items."

Which stat would you use? For example, lets say that you're the Sorceror Jim. Your wizard friend Bob made a staff of, I dunno, Horrid Wiliting, and passes it to you.

Which stat is the staff based on to determine save DC? Int, because "a Wizard did [made] it"? Cha, because that's your casting stat?

What about a Cleric using the Wizard-crafted staff (cleric has the Magic Domain). Does he use Int? Wisdom? Cha?

What about Use Magic Device? If your character naturally has a high mental stat (A casting Bard, for example), when UMD'ing an item, would you use your mental stat (Unlike the "Emulated Caster Level", it seems to me that if you have a high ability score here you COULD take advantage of it)?

Even stranger, what about Artificers, who craft but don't cast? What stat to the DC's for their staffs use?

Does the stat depend on the crafter of the item, the class of the user, the stats of the user, or whatnot?

I'm very confused.

Thanks in advance for any comments!

-youspoonybard

 

[Laman Stahros]

You would use the user's casting stat. If I remember correctly, artificers have a stat that their access to infusions is based off of, so they would use that. Anyone else (UMD users, etc), I'm not sure about.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1. In order to use the spell in a staff at all, it has to be on your class's spell list. Therefore, when casting a spell from a staff, use the ability score you would use when casting the spell.

2. If you're weaseling out of the 1st requirement (via UMD, usually), then we refer to the UMD text:

Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

So, if you have a spell list already (like a cleric or bard using UMD), then the spell is treated as if it was on your spell list, and you may use the appropriate ability score.

The only problem arises in the case of characters who don't normally have spell lists. In which case, I would rule that you may use any casting ability appropriate to the spell. If it's a Wiz / Sor spell, you may use Intelligence or Charisma. If it's a Cleric / Druid spell, you may use Wisdom.

I could also see an argument for "Use any ability that may be used by anyone casting a spell." Thus, a Rogue could use Int for Cleric spells, etc.

 

[youspoonybard]

Hmm.

This is a UMD-based question, but then -

I'm planning on playing a melee fighter who maxes out Charisma.

The build starts with bard levels, and along the way takes a level of cleric (and a few of Paladin as well).

If I wanted to use a Clerical staff, could I UMD the spell onto the Bard list instead of casting it as a cleric, to take advantage of my high charisma?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hmm...

Good question! If a spell is already on your spell list, can you UMD it anyway?

My guess (and it is a guess!)? Sure! Why not!

But you have to pick what you're doing before you roll. If you want to use the staff via UMD, you use it through UMD. If you fail, you can't then say, "But it's on my clerical spell list, so it works anyway." So, either you can use it normally, or you can gimmick it, but you can't do both.

How's that sound?

 

[youspoonybard]

Hmm.

If UMD adds the spell to your spell list, what about your caster level?

Say you're a Bard 20, and you UMD say, a staff of Horrid Wilting made at caster level 15.

How much damage to you do? If UMD "adds" the spell to your spell list, wouldn't you be casting it as a Bard spell, and your Bard spellcasting level kicks in, since it's higher than the CL of the staff?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

How much damage to you do? If UMD "adds" the spell to your spell list, wouldn't you be casting it as a Bard spell, and your Bard spellcasting level kicks in, since it's higher than the CL of the staff?

What's your Caster Level? 20.

What's the CL of the staff? 15.

Is your CL better than the staff? Yes.

Therefore, you may use your own CL.

Note that, in the case of a Rogue pulling the same trick, his Caster Level is --; therefore, he would always use the staff's CL.

 

[youspoonybard]

Interesting. I never much thought about the interaction between Staff and UMD before.

Thanks for your replies!

If anyone else has differing views, I would like to hear them too, and why (no offense, I just like hearing both sides).

 

[brehobit]

What's your Caster Level? 20.

What's the CL of the staff? 15.

Is your CL better than the staff? Yes.

Therefore, you may use your own CL.

Note that, in the case of a Rogue pulling the same trick, his Caster Level is --; therefore, he would always use the staff's CL.

So what is the caster level of a 20th level Warlock?

 

[Rystil Arden]

So what is the caster level of a 20th level Warlock?

20th. A warlock has a caster level.