Which weapon is better?

[Moff_Tarkin]

He is one for the number crunchers. This question comes from a star wars game me and my friends are playing. I know this is a D&D forum but don’t worry, this isn’t a star wars question. It’s a rules question and the rules for this are no different from D&D.

Here is the background. Yes its Star Wars but like I said, this isn’t a “Star Wars” question. My character was using a blaster rifle. The party said I should use a repeating rifle since it can fire more times. Since my character is small the special repeater they made for me does less damage. I don’t think it’s worth it, and they say I’m stupid.

Now to the actual question which, as promised, has nothing to do with Star Wars.

I have to choose between two weapons. I think the first is better; everyone else keeps pushing the second. Here is the rundown.

The first weapon does 3d8 damage. I have 2 special choices when using it. I can take one extra attack with a –2 to all (you should know how rapid shot works) or 2 extra attacks with a –4 to all.

The second weapon does 3d6 damage. I have 2 special choices when using it. I can take 2 extra attacks at –4 to all or 3 extra attacks at a –6 to all.

The first thing you see is that if I don’t take a full attack action, or choose to take less then 3 extra attacks, the second weapon becomes pointless.

I know different things work better in different situations but I want to know which weapon you think is better in general. If you had to choose one to use all the time, and had to choose right now, which would it be.

Some more info, I am a 7th level fighter so I have 2 attacks a round and a pretty good attack bonus. That may or may not be a factor.

Well, I have seen some of you guys do some impressive number crunching before so lets get to. Help me hammer this out and decide which weapon is better.

 

[ogre]

Without crunching numbers......
I'd go with the 3d8 weapon.
1) you won't always be making a full attack, so anytime you move and attack, it will do more damage.
2) The options are almost the same, except you can choose to do 1 extra attack at -2, but you can't do up to 3 extra attacks at -6. That kinda balances itself out.

I wonder what the crunchy people will prove

 

[FalcWP]

I'm not going to claim all my math is 100% accurate - I'm generalizing a bit, and its 3:00 AM. However....

If you fire once (you can't take a full attack, for some reason), you'll do an additional 3 points on average with your rifle over the repeater.

If you take a full attack without getting the extra attacks, you do an extra 6 points, on average with your rifle.

If you take your two extra attacks, you'll do an additional 12 points on average with your rifle.

That means that, for the repeater to be worth it, you'd need to average 12 points of damage on the third extra attack from the repeater. Which is unlikely. All your attacks that round are at -2 (going from the base of 4 attacks at -4 with each weapon). Your average damage with the repeater is 10.5 (before things like Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, and the like - if you have a lot of these that can be invested in the repeater, it will skew the numbers). So, even ignoring the additional penalty to hit, you don't make up the lost damage on that third extra attack.

Say that you have two rounds where you full attack and take the highest possible penalty. With the blaster rifle, you get 4 attacks per round, all at -4 penalties, dealing an average of 13.5 damage per attack. If all your shots hit for average damage, you do 108 damage.

With the repeater, you get 5 attacks per round, all at -6 penalties, dealing an average of 10.5 damage per attack. If all your shots hit for average damage, you do 105 damage. However, your penalty is two worse now. Basically, 10% of your shots that would normally have hit will now miss. With 10 shots, this means that, on average, one shot that would have hit at -4 will miss at -6. This reduces your average damage - so, if you got the exact same rolls, you'll now only do 96.5 damage.

Now, lets say you have extra damage on your attacks. For simplicities sake (my simplicity, anyway), we're going to call it a +2 weapon, with Point Blank Shot and Weapon Specialization. I realize that doesn't all apply to Star Wars quite as well, but it works for the example. That's +5 damage to your attacks. With the above example, Blaster Rifle damage increases to 148. Raw Repeater Damage increases to 155; however, we still have that one shot that would have normally hit missing because of the additional -2. That drops it to 139.5. Improved Critical can also make a difference (as you have additional chances to score a threat), but I'm too tired to figure out how much.

Now, at certain points, that -2 doesn't matter as much. When you can only hit on a 20, it doesn't matter, and you want as many shots as you can get. Also, when you only miss on a 1, it probably won't matter (though, if the target's AC is a 13 and you have +12 to hit, it starts to matter). But, against a typical foe where you have a reasonable chance of both hitting and missing, it generally equals one missed shot in ten.

So, yeah. Stick with your blaster rifle, unless you can add a *lot* of bonus damage to each attack. I think you need to get up to about +15 bonus damage for the repeater to edge ahead. By, like, 1.5 points. You're doing 228 damage with one weapon and 229.5 with the other. Honestly, stick with your blaster rifle.

 

[BASHMAN]

Rifle is better. More damage each hit, and a -4 for 3 attacks is a lot better than -6 on 4. Chances are at -6, you are going to miss a lot more often anyway.

 

[RedFox]

Rifle. A single extra attack at a huge penalty doesn't seem worth it on the face of it.

Maybe go with the repeater if you've twinked out on multi-fire stuff. But heck, I'd just see if I couldn't modify your big nasty rifle into a repeater then anyway.

 

[comrade raoul]

If you're a fighter, you probably have a good attack bonus for your level. The second weapon will probably do more damage overall.

Do you have any other damage bonuses? That can make a big different, because it can make base weapon damage less important.

 

[hong]

WTF does "repeater" mean in this context anyway? Are default blaster rifles bolt-action or something?

 

[Rhun]

WTF does "repeater" mean in this context anyway? Are default blaster rifles bolt-action or something?

For all intents and purposes, a "repeater" is the equivalent of a fully-automatic weapon, though the rules don't simulate that nearly as well as they should.

 

[KarinsDad]

If your friends are calling you stupid, they should look in the mirror.


In the single shot case and the two extra shots at -4 case, the rifle obviously outperforms the repeater with damage. No need to even go into those. The rifle also has the -2 to hit one extra attack mode which the repeater does not. No need to go into that option that the repeater does not even have.


So, the only thing to compare is the rifle at -4 for two extra attacks versus the repeater at -6 for three extra attacks.

Say your PC has a 50% chance to hit straight up.

With the rifle, the most attacks per round he could get is 4 at -4 each: 30% + 30% + 30% + 5% = 95% * 3D8 = 12.825 average damage per round

versus

with the repeater, the most attacks per round he could get is 5 at -6 each: 20% + 20% + 20% +20% + 5% = 85% * 3D6 = 8.925 average damage per round

For a 50% chance to hit (which is fairly typical at 7th level for a combatant type), the rifle averages more damage with 4 shots than the repeater does with 5 shots.


Even if the PC has a normal 95% chance to hit (i.e. needs to roll a 2 normally), the rifle still does more average damage in this scenario:

With the rifle, the most attacks per round he could get is 4 at -4 each: 75% + 75% + 75% + 50% = 275% * 3D8 = 37.125 average damage per round

versus

with the repeater, the most attacks per round he could get is 5 at -6 each: 65% + 65% + 65% +65% + 40% = 300% * 3D6 = 31.5 average damage per round


Sorry, but your friends are way wrong.

 

[pallandrome]

This depends entirely on your tactics. If you prefer run-and-gun (i.e. a lot of movement in battles) the the rifle is the distinct victor. If you are more a spray-and-pray kinda guy (i.e. sit in one spot and hose down the baddies will full attacks), then the choice isn't as clear. If your GM prefers sending a lot of weak baddies at you, go for the repeater. If he like throwing one or two tough opponants your way, the best bet. Another thing to consider; how often do you really miss, as a fighter? If you routinely beat the opponant's AC by 10 or more, the the repeater is VASTLY better. This sort of thing is more and more likely to come up the higher in level you become. 15+ level fighters LAUGH at a -6 penalty to attacks.