Whip vs. Spiked Chain need help for balance.

[melkoriii]

Whip vs. Spiked Chain.

Just looking for opinions on how balanced this is

So in a game Im playing in whips are treated as melee weapons that you use your Dex instead of Str.

At first I though dang that make the whip overpowered. But then I looked at the well liked Spiked Chain.

Compare: Spiked Chain (SC) to Whip (W) or Whip Dagger (WD)
Reach:
--SC 10’
--W 15’
--WD 15’

The Whip as a 5’ advantage over the SC and 5’ is a lot I know.

Damage:
--SC 2d4 x2
--W 1d2 x2 subdual only(Can not damage anyone with a Armor bonus of +1 or more or Natural AC of +3 or more)
--WD 1d6 x2

The SC has a very strong advantage over the Whip with the whip only doing MAX 2 subdual damage AND can not damage most any enemy
The SC has a mild advantage over the Whip Dagger buy 1 min and 2 max damage.

Now IF you treat all three as melee weapons the only thing that stands out is the 5’ greater reach for the Whip and Whip dagger.
With the Whip getting a lot of penalties to damage and the Whip dagger having less damage then the SC.

Other than that there seems to be NO difference between the SC and a Whip.

 

[Crothian]

Well, making a whip a melee weapon that relies on dex, is like getting a free weapon finesse feat for it. It also allows you to add strenth damage and get all those great melee feats for it, although PBS was always nice with a whip since it always applied. You've really strengthened the whip by doing this. A 15ft reach is amazing, it makes combat reflexes a must.

I played a Bard Laser in a campaign that went to level 20, so I've had a fair amount of experience using a whip in gameplay. I think making the whip a melee wepaon and allow weapon finesse for free is very, very powerful. I thought the whip was a fine wepon in the PHB version.

 

[melkoriii]

Well, making a whip a melee weapon that relies on dex, is like getting a free weapon finesse feat for it. It also allows you to add strenth damage and get all those great melee feats for it, although PBS was always nice with a whip since it always applied. You've really strengthened the whip by doing this. A 15ft reach is amazing, it makes combat reflexes a must.

I played a Bard Laser in a campaign that went to level 20, so I've had a fair amount of experience using a whip in gameplay. I think making the whip a melee wepaon and allow weapon finesse for free is very, very powerful. I thought the whip was a fine wepon in the PHB version.

So how did you handle AoO, Flanking and what Melee feats applied?

The SC can be finessed and has 10' reach and can have Str added.

For the normal whip at 15' reach I dont see apower problem as it can only do 4 damage MAX( not counting Str)

From everything I have read (posts and others) the only real way to make the whip useable is to take the Lasher PrCl and that is just wrong for a weapon.

 

[Crothian]

From everything I have read (posts and others) the only real way to make the whip useable is to take the Lasher PrCl and that is just wrong for a weapon.

Not every weapon is equal. Some are more about concept them power. Your taking one of the weaker weapons and trying to balance it with one of the strongest. Instead of improving the whip, you should really hinde rthe spiked chain.

 

[Crothian]

So how did you handle AoO, Flanking and what Melee feats applied?

I didn't get any Ao O with it since only melee weapons can do that. Flanking could happen if I was next to some one and my companion was on the other side, but that was rare because it was much better to hit them when they couldn't hit me. And not true melee feats applied.

 

[Jeph]

Personally, I'd just keep it a Ranged weapon. The Wizards folks probably considered all this stuff when they made the core manual, and decided that having a whip provoke and AoO and not threatening was a good balance for the reach.

Consider these two feats:

Lash Defensively (General)
You can use a whip defensively.
Prerequisites: Proficency with Whip, Dex 13+
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when using a whip. Also, you threaten the surrounding 5' squares with your whip.
Normal: Whips provoke an attack of opportunity and do not threaten.

Opportunity Lasher (General)
You take advantage of your opponent's weaknesses with your whip.
Prerequisites: Lash Defensively, Dex 13+, Whip proficency
Benefit: The area you threaten with your whip is extended to the whip's full range.
Normal: A whip does not threaten attacks of opportunity.

-Jeph

 

[Crothian]

Also, there is no reason to not make the laser abilities into feat for someone who wants to be the whip specialist, but doesn't want the prestige class.

 

[Xarlen]

Anyone who's willing to take a weapon that deals 1d2 points of subdual damage, as their primary weapon, has got some stones.

I say let them have some fun with it.

 

[Corlon]

heheheh, good point. But it shouldn't threaten, mabye give the prereques a lasher level because lashers are really the only ones that are good with whips.

And xarlen: Whip daggers deal 1d6 damage and you can make them mighty!

 

[Xarlen]

But I'm talking about a regular whip.