White Wolf and author Nancy A. Collins sue Sony over Underworld

[jdavis]

To be fair, I don't think Sony, as a corporation, expected anything. I'd be willing to bet money that, until the papers were filed, most of the execs at Sony had never heard of White Wolf. Much as we might like to think otherwise, the RPG industry barely registers as a blip on the radar to most entertainment folks.

If there was some plagiarism--and I think it's likely, but not certain, that there was--the guilty party would be a screenwriter or three, not the execs. The worst they're guilty of is, I think, ignorance.

It doesn't change the fact that, as captains of the ship, they're legally responsible for the actions of their crew, and if WW wins (or Sony decides to settle), it's the execs who will be held accountable. Nevertheless, I really don't think there was any ill intent on the part of most of the execs. (And it's rare for me to say that, given my opinion of large corporations in general.) I think they just didn't realize what it was they had.

It happens a lot at the script level, it's just thhat most of the times it gets caught before they start production. I mean can you imagine just how many story ideas they hear everyday, it's very posible that Sony is just as suprised by this as White Wolf was. I doubt that most Sony Execs had ever even heard of White Wolf games before the suit was filed.

 

[reapersaurus]

I'd be willing to bet money that, until the papers were filed, most of the execs at Sony had never heard of White Wolf.

I used the word "they" meaning the corporation as a whole, not the execs.
Executives of Sony might be complketely detached from normal life - I don't know.
But I GUARANTEE you, that someone along the line has a clue, and they not only are aware of the biggest vampire RPG in history, but they also watch TV. They would have seen Kindred : The Embraced, and they should know that it clearly states that it's based on the novel.

I just fail to believe that WW is so fringe and niche that it is unknown outside of gaming circles. Many people know about a vampire game, not just gamers. It's not like V:tM is played only in dark basements - it's VERY public. Hell, law enforcements agencies know about the game - I doubt if entertainment companies are ignorant of it.

 

[reapersaurus]

Read the document, folks. The movie is an outright ripoff of the book.

Oh, on the contrary - there are apparently reasonable people that can read that black and white document and say "There's nothing to it"... "completely frivolous" "blah blah I let my distaste of WW blind me from what's in front of my face blah".

 

[Pielorinho]

Read the document, folks. The movie is an outright ripoff of the book.

Which document? The press release? I find it wholly unconvincing. Given the idea of monster species who hate each other, the R&J storyline is obvious; I ran an R&J subplot in a Vampire/Werewolf LARP in 1993, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to whom the idea occurred. Unless there are a lot more similarities, Ms. Collins probably doesn't have much of a case.

White Wolf's case sounds even more tenuous to me. Could William Gibson sue the creators of the Matrix or of Blade Runner? Can Tolkien's estate sue the makers of Dragonslayer? Of course not. Sure, WW codified a particular aesthetic, and they did a great job of it; but unless the similarities are much grosser than the press release suggests (seven clans of vampires joined in a society dedicated to keeping vampires secret, fighting another group of vampires who believe in the superiority of vampires over humans, and all engaged in a war against thirteen tribes of werewolves who live in cairns and are trying to fight their version of Satan, Lord of the Pollution), then I'm very skeptical.

Reapersaurus, what sort of guarantee are you offering that they'll settle out of court? Color me skeptical.

Daniel

 

[Ranger REG]

As jdavis reasonably said, why don't you wait until the movie comes out (get some education about WoD) and then decide for yourself how blatant the lifting of ideas is. And I guarantee you - there are ideas lifted from the WoD in Underworld - it permeates the trailer. It's just a matter of what degree Underworld copied WW.
So for anyone to say WW shouldn't defend themselves, when there's warning signs all around that a crime happened... well, to be blunt, you're in the wrong to say that, and it's none of your business, AND you're not in the position to come to that conclusion yet (unless you've got a bootlegged copy of the movie already).

Ah! The legal keyword I was looking for in the intellectual property law: IDEAS. IIRC, IDEAS, whether they are original or based on another person's thoughts, cannot be copyrighted. Therefore they cannot claim copyright based on ideas.

You have to show hard evidence that they lifted copyrighted text, trademark (in exact likeness and image) from White Wolf's copyrighted work.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Corinth]

Which document? The press release? I find it wholly unconvincing. Given the idea of monster species who hate each other, the R&J storyline is obvious; I ran an R&J subplot in a Vampire/Werewolf LARP in 1993, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to whom the idea occurred. Unless there are a lot more similarities, Ms. Collins probably doesn't have much of a case.

White Wolf's case sounds even more tenuous to me. Could William Gibson sue the creators of the Matrix or of Blade Runner? Can Tolkien's estate sue the makers of Dragonslayer? Of course not. Sure, WW codified a particular aesthetic, and they did a great job of it; but unless the similarities are much grosser than the press release suggests (seven clans of vampires joined in a society dedicated to keeping vampires secret, fighting another group of vampires who believe in the superiority of vampires over humans, and all engaged in a war against thirteen tribes of werewolves who live in cairns and are trying to fight their version of Satan, Lord of the Pollution), then I'm very skeptical.

Reapersaurus, what sort of guarantee are you offering that they'll settle out of court? Color me skeptical.

Daniel

No, I mean the actual court papers filed by White Wolf's attourney last Thursday. It's online in PDF format, and that document lays clear that Sony stole the stuff from Collins' story.

 

[Mark Chance]

No, I mean the actual court papers filed by White Wolf's attourney last Thursday. It's online in PDF format, and that document lays clear that Sony stole the stuff from Collins' story.

That a noticeable number of people disagree even after reading the actual court papers, and that I'm still seeing commercials for Underworld seems to indicate that the case isn't quite so cut and dried.

 

[Zub]

I've read the court papers and I think WW has made a good case. I'm looking forward to seeing SONY's response.

 

[Pielorinho]

Gotcha -- I only saw those papers after I went to the bigger thread on this subject. Now that I've seen them, I'm even less convinced that WW has a case. Indeed, I suspect it went down like this:

-Someone in WW saw previews of the movie, said, "No way! They're stealing our ideas! Sue!
-The WW legal team explained that you can't sue for theft of ideas, but rather for specific copying of passages, of trademarked terms, etc.
-The WW artists compelled their legal team to go forward with the lawsuit, based on ego and a vague sense of fair play rather than on the law.

I expect the case to get laughed out of court.
Daniel

 

[Qlippoth]

Indeed, I suspect it went down like this:

-Someone in WW saw previews of the movie, said, "No way! They're stealing our ideas! Sue!
-The WW legal team explained that you can't sue for theft of ideas, but rather for specific copying of passages, of trademarked terms, etc.
-The WW artists compelled their legal team to go forward with the lawsuit, based on ego and a vague sense of fair play rather than on the law.

I expect the case to get laughed out of court.

Is it at all possible that:

-Someone in WW saw previews of the movie, said, "Hmmm. That looks familiar. Wonder if the script is lurking somewhere out there"?

-The WW legal team explained that if you don't sue for theft of ideas OR specific copying of passages OR trademark terms, etc. the first time around, you are potentially opening floodgates with the potential to drown your products?

-The WW artists asked their legal team to go forward with the lawsuit, based on the intellectual property they've created over 13 years and the potential that another corporate entity stands to profit using essentially the same material, possibly cribbed from their own?

I expect to watch this case closely. And continue reading White Wolf material. And, perhaps, see the movie.

Edit: readability