Who are Howard and Leiber?

[MerricB]

Eberron's a pretty bold statement about how unimportant it is for the game to be even remotely accessible to new blood coming into D&D fresh from seeing the LotR trilogy or having read the canons of Howard or Leiber.

Once upon a time, you could possibly make the assumption that Howard and Leiber were read widely amongst the youths who would be interested in D&D.

That time has long since passed.

I have had the distinct pleasure over the past three years of introducing a friend of mine to the wonderful world of fantasy books. She became interested through Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings. From there, I introduced her to Raymond E. Feist (her favourite series of his is the Empire series), Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan (not so enamoured), and David Eddings.

She's also been reading some of the newest authors as well, including some Australian authors. (Yes, we have a thriving fantasy scene here).

Howard and Leiber? She's never even seen a book by either of them.

I look at my (extensive) book shelves, and I see names like Robin Hobb, Anne Bishop, Terry Pratchett, Jennifer Roberson, George R.R. Martin, Steven Erikson and Lynn Flewelling. The range of worlds these authors have created is astonishing. This is what the people of today are reading. There are some who will go back into the past and dig up the classics of yesteryear, but [ED we can't assume that people will read the books of the past.

D&D cannot afford to ignore that.

However, one aspect of this galaxy of authors is this: readers get used to new worlds, to different types of magic. There isn't one overriding set of assumptions that must be used for a book to be labelled as "Fantasy".

Thus, the worlds created by the D&D rules are just another aspect of this tapestry. It has aspects familiar to those who have read fantasy, but it is different as well. The rules provide a consistency to the game to make it familiar to those who play it, allowing them to explore what the game holds.

If multiclassing is common, does not Richard of the Sword of Truth have the skills of a Ranger, Healer and Sorcerer? Isn't Ingold Inglorian of the Darwath Trilogy a master swordsman and wizard?

Isn't the world of Harry Potter full of magical trinkets and artefacts? Why then do we worry about the prevalance of magic items in D&D? Cannot Janelle of the Dark Jewels trilogy create her own magic rings - and Elayne do likewise in the Wheel of Time?

The works of Howard and Leiber are important, and have done much - and are doing much - for fantasy even now. However, they are not the entirity of fantasy, and it is now the time of their successors, to go to new places that they did not dream.

Cheers!

 

[Mark CMG]

The works of Howard and Leiber are important, and have done much - and are doing much - for fantasy even now. However, they are not the entirity of fantasy, and it is now the time of their successors, to go to new places that they did not dream.

Stirring up trouble, again MB?

 

[Khayman]

I'd tend to agree --- even in my mid-thirtyish group, most have not read Howard or Leiber, and only a few of us Lovecraft or Moorcock.

However, even if I haven't read Vance, the effects of his magic system are still reflected in the d20 ruleset. Likewise, Conan and the Grey Mouser are archetypes that still resonate through the game, like unspoken myths. And even if our players haven't read a single Conan novel, I'm pretty certain that's not the case among many current authors.

So, I'd say there's some continuity, even if only at a subliminal level.

 

[Khayman]

Now turning to the influence of Fletcher Pratt on modern science fiction and tabletop gaming...

<squark>

 

[MerricB]

Stirring up trouble, again MB?

Who, me?

One of the interesting things about all of this is how D&D has itself influenced fantasy fiction. One of the biggest writers of fantasy fiction - Ray Feist - started from a D&D-inspired RPG. Then you have Stephen Brust as well - though getting his books in Ballarat is a real struggle.

D&D also has really influenced all the computer games that now have an influence back on D&D. So, the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, Jack Vance, JRR Tolkien, Fritz Leiber and Robert Howard greatly influenced D&D, and that influence propagates further.

With the exception of Tolkien, most of those writers aren't the starting point for new people any more, however.

Here's a true story: Joseph Haydn was one of the early masters of the classical school of music. We still play his music today. The young Mozart used to play his works, and later on visited the older Haydn.

After Mozart's death, Haydn continued to compose music - but now did so influenced by the genius of Mozart.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

And even if our players haven't read a single Conan novel, I'm pretty certain that's not the case among many current authors.

So, I'd say there's some continuity, even if only at a subliminal level.

Absolutely. What's that Isaac Newton quote?

"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

We build things co-operatively.

Cheers!

 

[I'm A Banana]

The world keeps spinnin'....

If D&D wants to remain relevant in this brave new world, it must embrace the new fantasy steroetypes, cribbed from the likes of Harry Potter and Pokemon and MMORPGs! Fie on the old guard! Fie on them! They merely stagnate what could be a vivacious and creative process! Conan is a crutch for the unimaginative!

....now THAT's how you stir up trouble!

(tongue firmly in cheek, here, bubs)

 

[Akrasia]

Bah, humbug!

It's all been downhill since Homer.

 

[MerricB]

Bah, humbug!

It's all been downhill since Homer.

Homer! Humbug!

I prefer the Epic of Gilgamesh!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Golden Ass is the one true fantasy novel.

All others are but pale imitations.