Who are Howard and Leiber?

[Prince of Happiness]

I don't think anyone's saying not to reference them, just not to build them as the baseline from which 3rd edition has sprung.

But why? My point is that people, young people can and do find these classics out and read them regardless if they're in print or not (in print is helpful, but this is the age of Amazon, eBay, Half-Price Books, Half.com, and small presses dedicated to printing exactly this kind of stuff). They can then read these, decide if it's up to their tastes or not and get to reading what does float their boat. They should still be the base line namely because they're part of the fundamental baseline that the whole gameline has sprung from! Editions are passing and in however many years a new one will be made and will have a different cultural "environment" in which it grows up in.

As far as adventure construction goes, I recall that there used to be quite a few published adventures that would feature intrigue, they were part of a setting called "Lankhmar." Wonder where that came from. Hmmmmmmmmmm....

 

[Belen]

But why? My point is that people, young people can and do find these classics out and read them regardless if they're in print or not (in print is helpful, but this is the age of Amazon, eBay, Half-Price Books, Half.com, and small presses dedicated to printing exactly this kind of stuff). They can then read these, decide if it's up to their tastes or not and get to reading what does float their boat. They should still be the base line namely because they're part of the fundamental baseline that the whole gameline has sprung from! Editions are passing and in however many years a new one will be made and will have a different cultural "environment" in which it grows up in.

As far as adventure construction goes, I recall that there used to be quite a few published adventures that would feature intrigue, they were part of a setting called "Lankhmar." Wonder where that came from. Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Why? No one asks you to find an old copy of a PC game from the mid-90s to try and see where the baseline for computer games come from.

I think that D&D should be relevant to the current tropes in literature. For me, fantasy literature has seen a golden age of late.

 

[Turjan]

That's kinda ironic; if I'm remembering correctly, isn't your screen name one of those exact same characters you're complaining about?

I'm not "complaining about" the characters. I said they're mostly the same, just with exchanged names. They behave the same, down to their mannerisms. That's something different from complaining .

My screen name is in reverence for the first fantasy story I ever read. It's a sword-fighting wizard doing stunts like the "three musketeers", who's on a quest to perfect the growing of creatures in vats. What's not to love about that ? Doesn't matter that his character is typically Vancian.

 

[Mystery Man]

For me, fantasy literature has seen a golden age of late.

The "golden age" came and went a good and long time ago. Were in the "l33t" age now.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Why? Well, first reason, WoTC has their own lines of fiction. I imagine at a business level that directing your customers to buy game x from them but line y of fiction from another company would just be seen as stupid.

In addition, the old books while classics are hard to find. You never make the assumption that yoru customer is going to put more work into the game than is needed. Many people are casual players. Assuming their going to be able to find old C. L. Moore work or other out of print titles is a good way to insure the obscurity of the game.

If WoTC wants the game to only appear to die hard fantasy fans then sure, you've got a point but otherwise...

And the Lankhimar stuff was the early 80's no? There was a comic book series by First I believe and other good stuff for Laknhimar, in addition to actually being in print and easy to find.

Times change.

But why? My point is that people, young people can and do find these classics out and read them regardless if they're in print or not (in print is helpful, but this is the age of Amazon, eBay, Half-Price Books, Half.com, and small presses dedicated to printing exactly this kind of stuff). They can then read these, decide if it's up to their tastes or not and get to reading what does float their boat. They should still be the base line namely because they're part of the fundamental baseline that the whole gameline has sprung from! Editions are passing and in however many years a new one will be made and will have a different cultural "environment" in which it grows up in.

As far as adventure construction goes, I recall that there used to be quite a few published adventures that would feature intrigue, they were part of a setting called "Lankhmar." Wonder where that came from. Hmmmmmmmmmm....

 

[Desdichado]

The "golden age" came and went a good and long time ago. We're in the "l33t" age now.

Yes, indeed we are.

 

[Hussar]

I have to admit, I've never picked up a Leiber story in my life. And I'm a pretty ardent SF reader. Just, not an ardent reader of things written several decades before I was born. I loved Conan, and lots of other pulp fantasy, but, really, why shouldn't DnD change with the times?

I think the fact that DnD is moving farther and farther away from its origins is a good thing. Why should I be stuck playing in a game where magic in no way resembles what I'm reading? Pretty much every fantasy novel you pick up today has pervasive magic that is used by nearly everyone. So, if I'm coming off of those novels, into DnD, wouldn't I be pretty disappointed to find out that my DM considers a +1 sword to be the rarest of finds for a 10th level character?

 

[T. Foster]

More or less Vancian? In what way? I just read that for the first time about a year ago, and I didn't think that it and D&D magic had much (if anything) in common. It was more a prelude to Harry Potter esque magic, IMO.

The characters prepare specific spells in advance by studying spell books. Without taking time to study a particular spell in a particular book they're unable to cast it, and they're only able to study/prepare a limited number of spells at any given time. Once prepared, the act of actually casting those spells involves speaking specific words, making specific gestures, and sometimes employing specific objects (which makes it perhaps even a bit more like D&D magic than Vance, since I don't recall "material components" as such being used in Vance). The only thing missing is the names for spells -- in Vance and in D&D spells have proper names ("excellent prismatic spray," etc.) whereas in Bellairs they don't, or at least they aren't mentioned.

 

[painandgreed]

Another "Vancian" magic system seemed to be what they used in the Amber series. They'd cast tehir spells which would take a long time all except for the last word which would act as a trigger. When they wanted to use it, they'd say the last word trigger and the spell would complete. Explains metamagic too if you wanted to look at it that way.

As another author I don't think has been mentioned, i'd have to add Barbra Hambly. Time of the Dark series is pretty D&Dish and the wizard gives echos of Greenwoods Elminster. Personally, I think Dragonsbane is one of the great fantasy stories that has affected the flavor in my D&D games. Where the bard finds out all the heroic stories and songs about knights doing battle with dragons are drivel and the only living person to ever actually kill a dragon used poison after sneaking up on it and finished it off with an axe was classic.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

I just wanted to poke my head in to cheerlead Vance's Dying Earth books. I really, really think they're worth reading.

As much as I love Cugel the Clever (who's a fantastic iconic rogue/con man), Rhialto the Marvelous and his fellow mages are how I'll always imagine archmages. Plus, all the spell names are so evocative, for instance:

Xarfaggio's Physical Malepsy ... Arnhoult's Sequestrious Digitalia ... The Spell of Forlorn Encystment ... Khulip's Nasal Enhancement ... The Excellent Prismatic Spray ... Phandaal's Critique of the Chill ... etc.