Who else hates seeing enemies Raised / Resurrected / Wished Back?

[NewJeffCT]

With "Save or Die" spells being so prevalent at high levels prior to 4E, I always thought it was something that should be available to both sides. Once my 3.5E campaign got into those levels where Finger of Death or Slay Living were available, I figured I wasn't doing my job as a DM if a PC was not killed each encounter. (I had a large group of 8 PCs at the time)

The group had a cleric and a psion that could cast "Revivify" in combat to stabilize the recently dead PC. (If you took out the "save or die" spells, you're basically nerfing the wizard or cleric that could have cast them.) Post combat Resurrection/Raise Dead was far less common, though.

That said, the evil deity that the players went up against was Lawful Evil with a very formal power structure/hierarchy. So, if Level 9 priest of this religion challenged the PCs and died, the church would view that priest as a failure and not worthy of raising from the dead or resurrecting. Culling the weak links. (In combat Revivify was okay, and I did do that a few times...)

But, while in combat was done several times, actual raising of the dead/resurrecting post combat was not done at all for the evil clerics and their allies. (One evil cleric's widow did attempt to get revenge on the PCs later on in the campaign, though.)

However, the high priest of the entire religion was a different matter.

I had an elaborate back story on how it happened, but the high priest had a contingent resurrection placed on him by the #2 cleric in the church (the #2 cleric had to permanently sacrifice 2 points of CON to do it - and, she was elevated to the #2 position in the church for her sacrifice) Forgot what the exact spell was, but it was a surprise to the players when they got to that final encounter, chopped his head off (he had a crown on his head that was an evil artifact) only to have him instantly come back with full hit points and all his spells. Of course, since the headless part of his body was still within an anti-magic field, he was basically defenseless except for his spells (and the remainder of his allies...)

 

[Li Shenron]

One of the big reasons I loathe revivification magic is because of how much it sucks away the joy of a hard won victory to see a previously dead foe strolling out of a Temple. I'd rather play in a game with no raising than have the possibility of a confirmed dead foe showing back up living and breathing.

I've never resurrected any NPC... I guess, for consistency they should come back as often as the PCs. But I just don't like it. I suppose I tolerate it on the PCs once in a while, to undo some very unlucky death, but in general I would like it so much more if death was permanent for everyone, barring some truly special circumstances.

...on the other hand, NPC coming back as undead...

 

[Evilhalfling]

I had one villain who used it as his favorite technique. (okay he used it once during the campaign, once before, and once after)

He was a Presentiant Bard. Each time he fortolled his death, he would remove a finger joint and leave it in the hands of his allies.

His bodyguard got the same deal, but the PCs captured and imprisoned him. His last act was to kill the above Bard. The bodyguard had a huge chip on his shoulder, and was convinced of the wrongness of his cause. When he was executed, he refused resurrection.
Of course this ticked off his son....

The campaign ended with the death of the son(a childhood friend of 2 PCs) The bard died in the climactic fight, but went on to live for another 10 years.

 

[tipttt]

I think it's a terrible idea to resurrect villains just like that, just to make them recurring, for two reasons.

First: It takes out a lot of the feeling that the player characters have an influence in the world.

Second: It's kinda cheap storytelling to just deus ex a resurrection for the bad guys to make them recurring instead of finding a more interesting way, like making them operate mostly through proxies.

That is, when the foe is a lich, dracolich, immortal by nature or something like that, it's obviously ok to make them come back later.

I think a DM, when he wants to make a dead non-immortal come back, should always find a way to do it that can eventually be accessible to the players, like a ritual involving some rare artifacts, animals or something real tough to get (I'm not a fan of resurrections cast by a cleric, POW, out of thin air), and the players should always have an opportunity to counter the resurrection.

 

[Gort]

Raising magic should go. It's lame when NPCs do it, it's lame when PCs do it.

The only way anyone should come back from the dead is if their buddy gets Death in a headlock and makes him give the dead one back.

 

[Rechan]

I dislike Raise Dead and its derivatives with a passion, PC or NPC. It takes any significance out of death. Returning from the dead should only result from undeath, deal with some sort of Great Power at a terrible price, or retrieving their soul from the land of the dead and forcing it back into the body. That's it.

Stories where people return from the dead are epic legends, where it's so rare that's why we still hear about it today. It is not a simple 5th level spell and some diamonds.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I dislike Raise Dead and its derivatives with a passion, PC or NPC. It takes any significance out of death. Returning from the dead should only result from undeath, deal with some sort of Great Power at a terrible price, or retrieving their soul from the land of the dead and forcing it back into the body. That's it.

Stories where people return from the dead are epic legends, where it's so rare that's why we still hear about it today. It is not a simple 5th level spell and some diamonds.

Aren't a lot of D&D campaigns striving for that type of epic campaign, though? The PCs are the ones that become those heroes of legend.

However, I do agree that by keeping it the same level spell (ritual) throughout each edition, while stretching the expected level of the campaign out really cheapens the effect (as I explained up-thread - in 1E/2E, Raise Dead was something that probably only happened at, or near, the end of most campaigns, whereas it was available halfway through most 3E campaigns and only 30% of the way through a 4E campaign)

 

[Rechan]

Aren't a lot of D&D campaigns striving for that type of epic campaign, though? The PCs are the ones that become those heroes of legend.

Sure, but those heroes of legend didn't have a revolving door in the afterlife. They came back once.

Weren't you the guy who said you tried to kill a PC every encounter when Save or Die became regular? How many times were they getting Raised?

 

[NewJeffCT]

Sure, but those heroes of legend didn't have a revolving door in the afterlife. They came back once.

Weren't you the guy who said you tried to kill a PC every encounter when Save or Die became regular? How many times were they getting Raised?

Raise Dead/Resurrection was hardly done at all. Revivify was done regularly, though, since it was in combat.

If you take out Save or Die spells from 3E or earlier, you really nerf the spellcasters, IMHO, and also take the danger out of the game.

 

[gamerprinter]

Raise Dead/Resurrection was hardly done at all. Revivify was done regularly, though, since it was in combat.

If you take out Save or Die spells from 3E or earlier, you really nerf the spellcasters, IMHO, and also take the danger out of the game.

In the cases of spells changed from Save or Die in Pathfinder, it's now Save or 'take lots of damage, that will probably kill you anyway, just not automatically for certain...' Most people hit by one of these spells, still die anyway (like take 18d6 damage instead of auto death.)

Personally, as a GM, 'kill one of the PCs per session' is never one of my goals. I say, make it challenging with the risk of death, but no more than that.

While I agree that 'coming back from the dead' is something that I don't particularly care for, also rolling new character after character because the GM keeps killing them, is also no fun either.