Who's the biggest loser/coward from last night's game?

[Belphanior]

It's magical fear. It's not the monster making a face and saying "Rawr, I'm so scary!" it's magic going up, reaching into your brain, finding the fear dial, and turning it to eleven.

So? A slay living spell is magical death that reaches into your body, finds the life dial, and turn it to zero. We can apparently accept that frontline soldiers are better at resisting such things than the master of magic itself. Because logically speaking frontline soldiers are big, beefy men or something.

Yet when a spell tries to turn the fear dial to eleven, we can no longer accept that frontline soldiers are better (or even equal) at resisting such things than the master of magic itself. Even though logically speaking frontline soldiers are probably very brave souls - at least braver than commoners you'd think.

If it had been charm, or feeblemind or phantasm spells we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's the nature of fear that's problematic, not the way will saves work.

 

[dvvega]

I'm quite sure roguerouge is correct. Almost every monster (I say almost since I've not read EVERY monster) that uses auras or fear effects cannot affect the same target more than once in a 24 hour period.

Your DM either decided to try and screw everyone or just didn't know the rules.

D

 

[catsclaw227]

Yea, I'd say the DM messed up because he forced the Dwarven PC that saved vs. the aura to save again.

But it's also an issue with the "Save or Die" mechanic in D&D 3.5. In this case running with fear for the rest of the session is the same as "Save or Die". At 15th level, the Raise Dead is trivial, so running in fear for the combat and dieing in the combat are effectively just semantically different.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

So? A slay living spell is magical death that reaches into your body, finds the life dial, and turn it to zero. We can apparently accept that frontline soldiers are better at resisting such things than the master of magic itself. Because logically speaking frontline soldiers are big, beefy men or something.

Yet when a spell tries to turn the fear dial to eleven, we can no longer accept that frontline soldiers are better (or even equal) at resisting such things than the master of magic itself. Even though logically speaking frontline soldiers are probably very brave souls - at least braver than commoners you'd think.

If it had been charm, or feeblemind or phantasm spells we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's the nature of fear that's problematic, not the way will saves work.

Yes, because the life slaying spell directly effects what the frontline soldier is good at - his physical resistance. The fear spell effects what the wizard is good at - his mental resistance. There's a reason Wisdom is the stat for will saves. It's will. As in willpower, as in that thing you train when you study magic. Whereas the soldier has high constitution and gains fort - as in fortitude - saves, because high fortitude is what you train when you're a front line fightan man.

As for complaining that the fighter named Whatever the Fearless...Seriously? You don't make a character named Jonathon the Sane in a Call of Cthulhu game and then complain about taking SAN damage, do you?

 

[Lanefan]

Is good old "Resist Fear" no longer in the game as a low-level Cleric spell?

I don't mind fear effects - hell, at least if all I do is run away that means I'm likely to survive...assuming, of course, I don't run off a cliff in my blind terror.

Some fear effects are one-and-done; if you make your save once, you're good for that creature/encounter/effect/whatever.

Others are repeating; "whenever you get within 30'", or "each time you catch sight of it"...it sounds like the OP's DM was, for right or wrong, running it this way.

Lanefan

 

[Belphanior]

Yes, because the life slaying spell directly effects what the frontline soldier is good at - his physical resistance. The fear spell effects what the wizard is good at - his mental resistance. There's a reason Wisdom is the stat for will saves. It's will. As in willpower, as in that thing you train when you study magic. Whereas the soldier has high constitution and gains fort - as in fortitude - saves, because high fortitude is what you train when you're a front line fightan man.

Yes, I do know what a will save is, thank you. A raging barbarian gains "that thing you train when you study magic" then? Or does he train his rage to specifically get that save bonus? No. He resists fear better because his rage literally makes him more fearless. This is caused by fury and anger, not arcane conditioning of the mind. Your view on will saves is unnuanced, as there clearly are warrior mindsets that should help out with this kind of thing. And since there are such things, I question the logic that warriors are easier to spook than casters.

As for complaining that the fighter named Whatever the Fearless...Seriously? You don't make a character named Jonathon the Sane in a Call of Cthulhu game and then complain about taking SAN damage, do you?

Is this also directed at me? Your lack of mentioning another name makes me think it is.

 

[The Green Adam]

Hmm...I'm not the biggest D&D fan or even someone who plays it that often so I could be wrong but is Will the thing Wizards use when they study magic? I thought wizards want a high Intelligence. Intelligence is used for numbers of spells, arcane knowledge, spellcraft, etc. not Wisdom/Will. They're mages not Green Lanterns.

Also, while I am also not a big advocate of the Fear Aura magical effect unless its atmosphere is handled well in the context of the game, it is a power, an unnatural, magical effect that I view as not too dissimilar to charm. Instead of charming someone to think you're right or do what you want, you're charming them into fearing you.

Just some observations. I tend to play SciFi more then Fantasy and my Fantasy is more Ars Magica style and folkloric. Unlike D&D demons, the players actually fear the demons without any help from a failed save.

AD

 

[ppaladin123]

Is this also directed at me? Your lack of mentioning another name makes me think it is.

No...it was directed at me for my, "Bob the Fearless," example. I already expanded on my point in another post. I don't think it is unreasonable for a player in a heroic fantasy rpg to expect their character to behave heroically instead of of whimpering in a corner. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a servant of War itself to stand his ground in battle. That's just me though. I recognize others have no problem with this sort of fear effect.

 

[Mark]

No...it was directed at me for my, "Bob the Fearless," example. I already expanded on my point in another post. I don't think it is unreasonable for a player in a heroic fantasy rpg to expect their character to behave heroically instead of of whimpering in a corner. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a servant of War itself to stand his ground in battle. That's just me though. I recognize others have no problem with this sort of fear effect.

When those aspects are already a part of the particular game being played, I think those sort of changes need to be worked out in advance as part of a group decision. It's a pretty big change.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yes, I do know what a will save is, thank you. A raging barbarian gains "that thing you train when you study magic" then? Or does he train his rage to specifically get that save bonus? No. He resists fear better because his rage literally makes him more fearless. This is caused by fury and anger, not arcane conditioning of the mind. Your view on will saves is unnuanced, as there clearly are warrior mindsets that should help out with this kind of thing. And since there are such things, I question the logic that warriors are easier to spook than casters.

Warriors aren't easier to spook then casters. PURE fighters, however, don't train their mental resistances that much.

You claim you know what a will save is, but you then immidiately state "Wait, no I don't." Barbarians can't be feared because they're raging. Is the straight fighter raging? No? Then why would he be immune to fear?

Will save is "My brain is protected." Fortitude save is "My body is protected." Reflex save is "My reflexes are protected." Barbarian the class doesn't have high well saves. They can't resist magic better then a fighter. They can just put themselves in a mindset where they become a near mindless killing machine.

I'm still not understanding your logic. It seems to be "Fighters should be fearless because I say so."

Hmm...I'm not the biggest D&D fan or even someone who plays it that often so I could be wrong but is Will the thing Wizards use when they study magic? I thought wizards want a high Intelligence. Intelligence is used for numbers of spells, arcane knowledge, spellcraft, etc. not Wisdom/Will. They're mages not Green Lanterns.

While it is Wisdom, not Intelligence, that advocates will save, certain classes have different saves. Wizards have only will, because their entire focus is in their minds. So their minds are protected. Monks have good saves across the board. Again, it fits - monks train themselves for inner and outer balance and perfection. Barbarians have only a high fortitude, because they're all about the brute strength of their body.

Also, while I am also not a big advocate of the Fear Aura magical effect unless its atmosphere is handled well in the context of the game, it is a power, an unnatural, magical effect that I view as not too dissimilar to charm. Instead of charming someone to think you're right or do what you want, you're charming them into fearing you.

That's basically what it IS. As I explained earlier, it's not the monster saying "OOGA BOOGA!" It's the magic reaching into your brain, shutting down everything, and then cranking the fear knob to eleven. The entire argument seems based around this concept of "MY CHARACTER IS THIS BRAVE AND AWESOME FIGHTER WHO SHOULD NEVER FAIL AT ANYTHING."